Toby Dorr: Hi, everyone. And welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby. I’m Toby Dorr, and today I have a wonderful guest for you, Brittany Means, who at the age of 30 has just published an unbelievable memoir, and I can’t wait for her to share it with you.
Toby Dorr: Brittany, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Fierce Conversations with Toby.
Brittany Means: Well, thank you for having me, Toby.
Toby Dorr: I’m so delighted. You know, we have really an interesting background. Jeanette Walls has always been my hero. You know, I read Glass Castle when it first came out, and then when I had my own crazy story to tell, Jeanette Walls, in telling her story gave me permission to tell mine, so I’ve always been a huge fan of hers.
Toby Dorr: And when my book came out, I really wanted her to write the foreword for it, but I didn’t know her, and I didn’t know how to reach her. But last spring, Her new novel came out, Hang the Moon, which was so good. And I had just had a total knee replacement, but she was doing a book signing in Washington, D. C.
Toby Dorr: And it was only three weeks after my total knee replacement, but I said, I’m going anyway. And so I drove into D. C. and went to the book signing. And, and at the end of the, her presentation, she asked if there were any questions. And I stood up and told her that she had given me the courage to write my book.
Toby Dorr: And I brought a book. A copy of it to give to her and so we’ve become friends since then and i’ve been to a couple of her book signings and When I saw her post on her facebook page That she had met you at a book signing years ago when you were a college student and That you had inspired her to learn, to start writing and that your book was out and Jeanette really recommended it and I immediately went and bought it and, uh, started listening, listening to it.
Toby Dorr: And, and Jeanette even emailed me and she said, Toby, you need to get Brittany on your podcast. And so I think it’s so cool that Jeanette Walls inspired both of us to write our books and that that somehow has connected us.
Brittany Means: Yeah,
Toby Dorr: I think that’s. Awesome.
Brittany Means: It’s still surreal to me. I’ve admired her for so long.
Toby Dorr: Oh, she is something. Yes, she is. She really is. And you know, I’ve been listening to your book and wow, I just love it. And here, I have the audio book. I’m going to put this up so people can see it. But we’re going to talk a lot about this book. Hell, if we don’t change our ways. Um, so I can’t wait to dig into that.
Toby Dorr: But before we get started, can you tell me what your
Brittany Means: Um, it, it changes all the time. Um, I really like pretty much all colors. As you can see, I’m a
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. Mm
Brittany Means: really love gardening and being out in nature. So I just love the ranges of green.
Toby Dorr: I like that too, and you know, especially in the spring when things start greening up and it’s almost like someone took a paintbrush and just painted the whole world in every shade of green. It is really revitalizing, I think. So what’s the hardest decision you’ve ever had to make? I’m not
Brittany Means: Hmm.
Toby Dorr: if you can see it.
Brittany Means: Um, I don’t know if I can pinpoint an exact hardest one. There have been a lot of them. I think maybe one was Um,
Toby Dorr: uh,
Brittany Means: when I was in high school and I moved in with a foster family, just choosing to stay there instead of going back when I felt like it was my responsibility to take care of my mom,
Toby Dorr: um
Brittany Means: uh, regardless of the conditions, uh, like I really believed that and so deciding to stay in this environment that was healthier for me, and it felt like walking away from my mom and my brother and my family, that’s probably up
Toby Dorr: is hard. Yeah, that makes sense. That is hard. You know, I had a situation in my childhood where I kind of felt responsible for all my brothers and sisters and, and it really is hard to step away from that. So I can relate your book. Hell, if we change hell, if we don’t change our ways, thing I love so much about that, not is it not only is it just a really powerful story of, Overcoming so many things, but it’s so different from other memoirs because there really isn’t a story structure so much.
Toby Dorr: I feel more like I’m inside your head and, and getting a peek at how you’re thinking and how you’re observing the world around you. It’s almost like I’m reading your diary or your journal and I just find that so compelling and so honest and so authentic. I just love it. So how long did it take you to write this book?
Brittany Means: well, I I think I really started it in college. I wasn’t thinking of it necessarily as a book But I had this wonderful creative writing teacher. She taught nonfiction Jill Chrisman, and she has a book called Darkroom, which I also referred to a lot when I was writing about things that had happened and she was so encouraging and pulled me aside and Really affirmed to me that I was a writer and so yeah That’s where I first started writing about things that had happened in my life because before that I mostly worked with poetry.
Brittany Means: Um, and then I went to grad school and worked on some more essays. And then my final year, my thesis was, I turned in the first draft of the book. Um, yeah, so I
Toby Dorr: really interesting. Yeah.
Brittany Means: so
Toby Dorr: I love that.
Brittany Means: 2019 is when I actually started writing it and thinking of it as a book.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, you know, that’s interesting. I had been working on my book for 15 years, but it wasn’t until about two or three years ago that I really got into it and thought of it as a book. And then once I got on the track, you know, it goes a lot faster, but there was all those years of just writing things and pushing papers around and not knowing where the beginning is or where the end is or even what matters.
Toby Dorr: And it’s such a process. And, you know, how did it feel publishing your book? How did it feel putting that story out into the world?
Brittany Means: Um, it was it’s been kind of like that feeling when I know this is a cliche, but when you’re on a roller coaster and going up is like riding it and you’re like, yeah, yeah, it’s going to be a big deal. It’s going to be out in the world. And then you reach the top and you’re like, all right, I know what’s coming.
Brittany Means: And then on the way down, your stomach starts flopping and you’re like, Ooh, I thought I knew, but yeah. Um, so it’s been a little frightening, but mostly exciting.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, that is, it’s just awesome. And I highly recommend it to everyone. So I’m going to put a link to that on your, in our show notes as well. So I just love it. You have so many things you could talk, talk to us about, I know from reading your book, but can you tell us about a significant event in your life that knocked you down and how did you pick yourself up?
Toby Dorr: I don’t really know
Brittany Means: the, the day I actually sold it to Zibi Books, my grandma passed away, um, and so I lost Louis in the book, and then My cousin was killed and then my grandma passed away and I lost an uncle so as I was going through this whole Publishing whirlwind.
Brittany Means: I lost quite a few people and that was it was really hard Like one grief is already life changing you have to become a whole new person so yeah, the past few years have been hard in that way and I’ve really I think the way I’ve dealt with it is um, Well, therapy and, um, you know, relying on my support system, which has always been hard for me, just having to be self reliant.
Brittany Means: I’ve come back to, um, like trusting that I can actually rely on other people, which is really hard. Um, but,
Toby Dorr: I could tell it’s hard, you know, in reading your book because in so many places, there’s just nobody you could rely on. You kind of just had to make your own space. So that would be hard to be able to trust someone to let down those walls and feel free to trust someone. Yeah, I love that. You know, and.
Toby Dorr: My mother died about, I think it’s been eight or nine years ago, and she lived a good long time. She died when she was 78 or 79, but I still feel like an orphan, you know, that my parents are gone. And it’s a funny thing because I’m, you know, not a child anymore. But there’s just something about when you lose your grandparents and then you lose your parents.
Toby Dorr: And it’s just It just you just kind of feel adrift and it does take some time to get through it And I can’t imagine having all those losses at the same time You’ve got a publishing deal because on one hand you’re all excited and up and have lots to do and on the other hand You just need some time to just sit and chill and and feel so that would have been that would have been a difficult thing Who
Brittany Means: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: has been your most important mentor?
Brittany Means: Hmm. I really struggle with the, like, most or the, the best or, or questions like that because I have so many, um, Yeah, there was Jill Chrisman, who was the person in college she took me aside and really made me feel like I wasn’t just, you know, like journaling, um, aimlessly, which also a wonderful thing to do, um,
Toby Dorr: it is. Yes,
Brittany Means: to, like, see to the heart of what I was trying to do with my work, and we had conferences, and it wasn’t just that she knew what I was trying to do, but she also knew, like, how I needed to hear her feedback, and she’s so, like, warm and insightful and an amazing writer, um, and then Kiese Lehmann, who taught for a semester at Iowa, the author of Heavy, um, Just, yeah, he was my first workshop at Iowa.
Brittany Means: And I think if it hadn’t been with him, I don’t know that I would have really felt comfortable or felt like I was ready to write the things that I was writing in there and that ended up in the book. Um, and he’s been so supportive since the book came out and also just someone I really admire, admire his writing, his politics, just, I think he’s an amazing person.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, that’s so interesting and I really think, you know, mentors mean so much to us and often they don’t even know what the impact they had on people. So think it’s important to recognize them. Um, tell me about the title of your book.
Brittany Means: Yeah, um, so when I was a kid and I would ask where are we going in the car, my mom would say to hell if we don’t change our ways. And it was just kind of like a joke that people told in the family, but I think it was also her way of deflecting because she didn’t know where we were going because we just wandered a lot.
Brittany Means: And then, um, it was, it was that and then also through writing the book, I realized like I could see all of these echoes of like my great grandpa hurting my grandpa and then my grandpa hurting my mom and her siblings. And then how that passed on to me and my generation in the family. And so to me, it was like, If we don’t change our ways, if we don’t find a better way of expressing our pain and building a better life for ourselves, then we will stay in this hell that is perpetuating violence.
Toby Dorr: I love that. You know, and it, um. I do a lot of work with, uh, prison reform and re entry work. And, you know, I always say that you have to break the chain at some point because it just keeps repeating if you don’t. So that is kind of what you’re talking about, you know, that there has to be a generation that says, Stop.
Toby Dorr: I’m not gonna go this way. I’m doing something different. And then the world just opens up and changes. So it is so important. And in your book, You lived in your car for a while and just kind of drifted from place to place with no destination, which seems on one hand, kind of freeing and, uh, powerful, but on the other hand, you didn’t have any structure, any anchor to call home.
Toby Dorr: And so how did you deal with those things? How did you deal with going to different schools all the time or being in a new town?
Brittany Means: Um, yeah, I think at the, when I was around the age we were living in the car and moving all the time, it didn’t feel like, like that was my baseline, so to me it was just, that’s how things were. And the most important thing to me then was just being with my mom. And so I got that when we were in the car, it was like this little world where we were just together and we were surviving.
Brittany Means: Um, so I really didn’t I wasn’t thinking like, ah, I wish that we were in a house right now.
Toby Dorr: hmm. That was your norm.
Brittany Means: yeah.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. I just love the story. So you have so many, but can you tell us about a significant event in your life that knocked you down and how did you pick yourself up and become stronger from it?
Brittany Means: Yeah. Um, I think when my brother Ben was kidnapped, that was
Toby Dorr: Okay.
Brittany Means: really, it was kind of like, um, a pivot point. Because before that, like, things were hard. And some awful things had happened to me, and I’d watched awful things happen to other people. But it was What made it so terrible was that I was an older sister, and I, you know, I would, I would like beat him up sometimes, or we would get in fights, but
Toby Dorr: Okay. Okay.
Brittany Means: like it was my job to keep him safe, and it was kind of instilled in us that I was supposed to look out for him, and then this terrible thing happened while I was there, and, um, and then he got sent to live with his dad, and I was sent to live with Mark, and it was really hard just not having him there to process it.
Brittany Means: And, um, I think it was actually a really long time before either of us, like, mourned that part of it. Like, I, I think he had to deal with a lot, but we had to come together later as adults and really process, like, not only did this awful thing happen, but then we were separated, which happened all the time, but it was different that time because it was like this crucial event and then we didn’t get to process it or survive it
Toby Dorr: Yes, yes, that is hard
Brittany Means: yeah, and
Toby Dorr: be ripped apart and not know how the other person’s dealing with it. That is tough.
Brittany Means: yeah, um, so I think that one was a, a bit of a long term getting up from it because it was only as adults that we really like talked about it and pulled out all of the unspoken things. And I think having someone in your life who will be willing to like pull apart a hard thing is really important.
Toby Dorr: It is hard. It is really important. And you know what you just said is powerful for people who are listening because just because you had something that happened as a child and years have passed, maybe decades even, and you haven’t dealt with it, that doesn’t mean you can’t deal with it and heal from it.
Toby Dorr: There’s always, you know, the opportunity to go back and work through that and I found that kind of, you know, you kind of get this scab over these old wounds that you can’t deal with and you think they’re healed and they’re not. And when you start the journey of healing them, you kind of almost have to rip those scabs off and let the wounds bleed all over again and go right back into the, the trauma
Brittany Means: Mm hmm.
Toby Dorr: work your way out of it healthily.
Toby Dorr: So it’s not an easy thing to do.
Brittany Means: Yeah, it’s true.
Toby Dorr: And, and I love how honest you are about all these things in your book. You’re just put yourself out there. You’re so vulnerable and authentic that. It really is a powerful read. I can’t, I haven’t finished yet, but I can’t wait. It’s my favorite thing. I’m actually having a total knee replacement surgery next week, and I’m bringing my, that book to the hospital with me so I
Brittany Means: Oh, wow.
Toby Dorr: think I’ll have a lot of time to read.
Brittany Means: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: and I just love it. So tell us about a turning point in your life that propelled you in a new direction.
Brittany Means: Yeah. Um, I think just going to college, it was a really big turning point. One, I was on my own, so I had to figure out, like, how do I just survive, like, being homeless and Struggling with money and all of that. I didn’t really have like,
Toby Dorr: hmm. Mm hmm.
Brittany Means: And so it was kind of like plopped into this environment where, I mean, it’s a huge adjustment for anyone. But for me, it was like, how do I survive? How do I deal with like, after being In constant survival mode, now I’m out, but like, how do I deal with just sitting with everything that happened? Um, and it was also really important because I was in an abusive relationship and in college was where I didn’t have that like constant control and reinforcement.
Brittany Means: I still kind of did long distance for a while, but being in college gave me. Like the freedom to see that the situation wasn’t good for me and that there was a way out and that I was far enough away that I didn’t have to be as scared if I left. Um, and then also like working through religious trauma, I wasn’t just enmeshed in, in like super insular, strict religious community.
Brittany Means: I was able to like figure out my own spirituality. Um, so yeah, college for a lot of reasons.
Toby Dorr: Yes, I can see that. And what did you go to University of Iowa is that where you went for your undergrad as well?
Brittany Means: I went to Ball State University in Muncie,
Toby Dorr: Ball State University. Okay. Yeah, I’m familiar with that. And then you went to the University of Iowa for your graduate degree. Cool. How’d you pick Ball State?
Brittany Means: Um, really, I didn’t have the best grades in school. Um, I missed a lot and was moving too much to really You know, absorb what I was learning. Um, and I think like the, the last two years of high school, I really started to get it together. And, um, by then, like, I, I didn’t really have the kind of record to get into like anything prestigious.
Brittany Means: Um, so I was, I was mainly looking at like state schools and then I visited ball state and I really liked. The campus, I liked that everything was walkable and then another big part of it, it was like closer to my best friend, Shirley, who, um, lived in Newcastle and Ball State was in Muncie. So it was, we could visit each other.
Brittany Means: So maybe not like your profound reasons.
Toby Dorr: Right. That’s good though. You know, and that’s another important lesson too, that just because you don’t excel in high school does not mean that you can’t go to college and make something of yourself, because I do think college is an opportunity. For people to find themselves. And it sounds like you did a lot of that.
Toby Dorr: So I think it’s important for people to know that college is never off the table. Um, I had two bachelor’s degrees and when I married my second husband, and he would always introduce me. As this is my wife, she’s the educated one. And it bugged me because it’s like, Chris, you have so much life education.
Toby Dorr: He was in the Navy and he lived all over the world for, you know, six months in Israel, six months in Ireland, six months in Japan. He had all this experience that I didn’t have. And so I got so tired of him saying, this is my wife. She’s the educated one that one day I. Signed him up for the community college in our town.
Toby Dorr: And I said, you’re enrolled, go pick your classes. And so he got his bachelor’s degree and while he was getting his bachelor’s degree, I got two master’s degrees. And so then he started introducing me as this is my wife. She’s the one with the graduate degrees. And I said, okay, you’re getting one too. So now he has a master’s degree too, but you know, anybody.
Toby Dorr: Can benefit from going to college and I really think just enrolling in a college and immersing yourself in the college culture changes the way you think and it changes the people you hang out with and it it broadens your mind
Brittany Means: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: so Definitely, I think it’s a great way for anyone to break that cycle of family Issues that are generationally long a college is a great way to jump in and and start to break those chains I love that.
Toby Dorr: And I’m assuming, did you go to Iowa because you were interested in writing and they have such an awesome writing program there?
Brittany Means: Yeah. I had applied to a few schools and it was,
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Brittany Means: it was, um, down to like Iowa or New Mexico are my two top choices. And I told another mentor, Kathy Day at Ball State was like, yeah, I got into these schools and she was like, well, obviously you’re going to Iowa. I was like, oh, okay.
Toby Dorr: they are really well known for their writing program. So I think that’s awesome. Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. So many of these questions, I feel like we’re just, they’re, they’re questions I ask all my guests, but I think they’re almost tailored for you. So was there ever a time you really felt imprisoned and what did you do to liberate yourself?
Brittany Means: Yeah. Um, I think that abusive relationship. Through high school and into college, um, yeah, I just, I got into such a place of not believing that leaving was possible. Like, I remember literally saying, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to leave, and like, breaking down, and, um, Yeah, it was just, it’s hard to get into that mindset now and remember how exactly I, like, slowly lost myself and believed that I couldn’t leave.
Brittany Means: But yeah, in college, um, I was, I had my own apartment. We had had a really big fight, and I just had, like, This thought that was like, this is never going to get better. Like, we can have a few, like, a honeymoon period for a few months, and maybe we won’t fight. But the second I do something wrong, it’ll always be this huge blowout where I end up apologizing for hours.
Brittany Means: And, um, yeah, I just, I had to, like, take that big scary step of leaving. And then the even scarier step, which is like a hundred steps of staying gone. Even though your brain is screaming at you that you’re doing something wrong.
Toby Dorr: mm
Brittany Means: Yeah,
Toby Dorr: That is hard because you can live in an abusive situation for so long that it becomes your norm and you can justify it. And people always say, why don’t you just leave? But they don’t understand what it’s like to be inside of an abusive relationship. and feel powerless. So it does take a lot of courage and strength.
Toby Dorr: And I haven’t gotten to that point in your book, but I’m expecting we’re going to learn something about that in the book. So, yeah. What’s your favorite chapter in the book? What’s the favorite story in the book for you?
Brittany Means: Um, I have a favorite section or maybe two favorites.
Toby Dorr: Okay.
Brittany Means: So one is, It’s a section on memory and how our memories are really unreliable. Um, and I, I like that one because it was so helpful for me to write. It’s about, like, the hippocampus and the way trauma affects memory. Um, And I, yeah, I hope that people get something from it because I got a ton out of writing it.
Brittany Means: Um, and then another section is about my decision not to have children and coinciding with my decision to get chickens. Um,
Toby Dorr: Ah,
Brittany Means: and, yeah, me too, I have five of them outside right now, so if you see me glancing, it’s, I just have to ease in.
Toby Dorr: and personalities and
Brittany Means: Oh yes, they
Toby Dorr: love having chickens that they’re pretty cool.
Brittany Means: they’re my pride and joy.
Toby Dorr: good. Yes, I can totally relate. It makes such a difference to have an animal in your life that you love. So, what’s one question you wish I’d asked? Something else you might like to share with us that we haven’t talked about?
Brittany Means: Um, I guess because you’re also a writer and you have a really incredible story, sorry I’m losing my voice, um,
Toby Dorr: all right.
Brittany Means: a question people ask me a lot is, is like, was it cathartic to write this book or how have you changed from writing the book? And, um, I would love to know your answer to that question.
Toby Dorr: Oh, my gosh, it was amazing to write the book. I don’t think I could have healed without it. And, you know, when I was in prison, I had a bunch of journals and I would just sit and write and I have a box of them on my desk. I have about 30 journals that I just filled in prison. And I referred back to them when I wrote my memoir, although really, you know, I rewrote it from a more current frame of mind, but those journals pulled things out of me that I didn’t even know were in there.
Toby Dorr: You know, and I have this, I have this belief that when you pick up a pen and you write with your hand, I think your hand is connected to your heart and it pulls out things you don’t even know you feel. And you look at the paper and go, wow, I didn’t even know that’s how I felt. And, and it brings these things out so that you can acknowledge them and then start to heal from them.
Toby Dorr: And I find when I sit down at a keyboard and start typing, it’s all coming from my head and it’s, it’s, it’s not the same. So I didn’t write my whole book by hand, but I wrote. The hard parts, you know, out in my journals and then I could read what I wrote to really remember how I was feeling and, and how that affected me.
Toby Dorr: So I think writing is the best healing tool in the world. You know, it just. It just gives you the space to say how you’re feeling without having to worry about the person you’re talking to is going to accept you or not. So I think it’s so powerful. Yeah, I just love it. Yeah, that’s excellent. How about you?
Toby Dorr: Did you find writing to be healing?
Brittany Means: yeah, um, I’ve described it as it feels like it was an exorcism, like I had all these hard memories. Yeah. And now they’re like out of me and in a book and you know, I still deal with them. They’re just not as like urgent and painful as they were before I wrote it. Yeah.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I have this thing, I call it the shame dragon, and actually I have a shame dragon sits on my desk here. But you know, the shame dragon, I had all this shame, you know, and, uh, I couldn’t deal with it because I couldn’t hold it. I couldn’t, it wasn’t something I could push against because it was so. Foggy and unsubstantiated, but when I came up with the thought that this is a dragon, you know, and it has these gnarly teeth and this smelly breath and it gets in my face and roars fire at me or it slams its tail and hits me in the chest, when I could picture it as a dragon, then I could fight it
Brittany Means: Mm hmm.
Toby Dorr: it was something I could envision and push against.
Toby Dorr: So I teach a course on slaying your shame dragon and. It is amazing to me how much it freed me when I gave a form to the thing I battled the most.
Brittany Means: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I tell you there. Yes. There’s nothing that heals the way writing does that’s for sure. So what’s one word that inspires you?
Brittany Means: It’s a, it’s a goofy one, but, um, dialectical.
Toby Dorr: I love it.
Brittany Means: Yeah. Um, to me, it was really important to break out of binary thinking that like, you know, the people who hurt me were just people who hurt me or the things I’ve done wrong or like. Irreversible and self defining and they’re still defining, but, um, yeah, I think when I was able to hold conflicting ideas in my mind at the same time, it really helped my healing and it helped my ability to move through the world.
Brittany Means: Um, so it’s a, it’s a bit of like a, a grad school word, but I think I hope, I hope. Other people can
Toby Dorr: Yes, I love it.
Brittany Means: thinking.
Toby Dorr: I love it. I’m going to do some research on that a little bit, too, because that’s really intriguing to me. So, what’s next in Brittany Means world? Is there another book coming? Is there, uh, what, what are your plans? How does your future look five years from now, in your mind? Yes.
Brittany Means: Uh, well, I’ll probably have more chickens for one. Um, Uh, but yeah, I’m working on my second book, which is about how delusions manifest in religious communities and my family’s health. And Stigmata, um, who knows how much of what I have now will actually be in the final book, but uh, yeah, I’m really excited by it because, um, it’s more to process, and also Stigmata is very interesting.
Toby Dorr: I can’t wait to read that one too. You have so many experiences and you’re so young really for having all this in your background. It’s just amazing to me and I think I just admire what you’re doing. I think you’re a powerful and strong woman and I am so delighted to be able to have you on my podcast because.
Toby Dorr: I think that there are so many people out there that can relate to your story and be inspired to change their own lives.
Brittany Means: Thank
Toby Dorr: thank you so much for joining us today.
Brittany Means: Yeah, thank you for having me on.
Toby Dorr: You are so welcome. It’s been my delight.
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Toby Dorr: And if you leave a comment or a review that helps the most, the next way you can support Fierce conversation with Toby is to join our Patreon at patreon.com/fierce conversations. All tiers come with a downloadable digital gratitude journal created by me and membership in a private Facebook group that I also lead.
Toby Dorr: Most importantly, 10 percent of all proceeds from your donation will go directly to donating my workbooks to women in prison. Finally, sharing the link to this show with your friends, family, and anyone who wants to listen is appreciated more than I can say. Thank you again for joining me today and supporting this show by listening to it and in whatever other way you can.
Toby Dorr: Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Dorr. Production by Number 3 Productions. The theme song that you’re hearing now, Groovin was composed and arranged by Lisa Plass. Lisa also plays the flute for the theme with Carolyn Paradis on piano and Tony Ventura on bass. Find out more at tobydore.
Toby Dorr: com. This is Fierce Conversations with Toby. Escape your prison.
