Toby Dorr: Hi, everyone, and welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby, the show where we discover the silver lining in life’s most difficult stories. I’m your host, Toby Dorr.
Toby Dorr: Hi Charli, thanks so much for joining me on this episode of Fierce Conversations with Toby. Before we start, hi, it’s, I’m delighted to have you here. Before we start, can you tell me what your favorite color is and why?
Charli Hoffman: It’s so interesting, I listened to your podcast and I got a clue that that would be asked, um, and so my favorite color is royal purple right
Toby Dorr: Royal purple, wow,
Charli Hoffman: Yeah, and, and I, like, specifically that’s right now because it’s changed many times for me and I think it’s based on the season of life and right now I am leaning into finding more rest and pleasure and that just feels like the purple
Toby Dorr: yes, yes, I love that and I do think that, um, It changes depending on our circumstances or the part of our journey we’re on in life. Different colors appeal to us at different times. So, I like that. Purple’s one of my favorite colors too. Um, you know, and I like to ask that question because it just kind of gives people a little bit of a peek into who people are.
Toby Dorr: And, it’s not really a fierce question. My husband’s always asking me, why do you ask that question? But, when I Want to take it out. All my listeners go, no, no, we like to know. So we leave it in.
Charli Hoffman: Yeah, it’s interesting, and I love when people are specific, and they have like a very specific reason why they love it, or a specific color. It’s just, you’re right, it’s
Toby Dorr: Yes. That it makes it so fun. So tell me about the hardest decision you’ve ever had to make.
Charli Hoffman: I would say it was when I left my ex. I was in a violent relationship, and I tried to leave five times, and Um, the fifth time it’s stuck, um, and it has been a little over two years since then. And it was hard because it, it was changing everything about my life. I moved 400 miles away. I lost one of my dogs in the process.
Charli Hoffman: Like there were so many, I lost a lot of my possessions. Um, and I had been very conditioned to believe that that was what I deserved and the best I was ever going to get. So this idea that I was going to leave that. Um, it was hard. It was so hard.
Toby Dorr: It is hard. You know, I went through a divorce and it was a divorce that was obvious to everybody that I really wanted. But even still, it was difficult to go through because it’s your whole life is just And, and everything changes, you know, where you live, what you do, and you’re right. All those possessions, which kind of taught me the lesson that those possessions don’t really matter.
Toby Dorr: And I like to collect things, but you know, you can go on without them if you have to.
Charli Hoffman: Absolutely. And I would say losing the possessions actually Made me enjoy what I have now way more, you know, because it was like now it feels like a luxury You know when I first moved into my apartment and I I came from staying with my best friend after I left and we were living In the wilderness of West Virginia And I was in out in nature every single day and I didn’t have a bathtub And I got my new apartment and I got a bathtub and I thought whoa, like this
Toby Dorr: Yes, yes,
Charli Hoffman: know
Toby Dorr: I can relate. When my husband and I first got married, my current husband, um, we bought an old building in a small town in Missouri, in the center of Missouri, a town of about 20, 000 people. And this building was in danger of collapsing. It was built in 1890 and it was a two story brick building.
Toby Dorr: And so as soon as we bought it, My husband said, well, we’re moving in. And I’m like, what, what, what? We don’t have water. We don’t have electricity. He said, yep, I know, but we’re moving in. So, you know, for the first couple of weeks, you had to drive to the 24 hour gas station to use the bathroom. And it’s like, this is crazy.
Toby Dorr: So I went home during the week a lot and stayed with my mom. Um, you know, eventually we, he. He got water in, we got electricity and, but we were constantly working on that building. And I remember we didn’t have a sink in our little bathroom and it was the only place we had water. So I had to do the dishes in the bathtub, which kills your back.
Toby Dorr: And one year he bought me a kitchen sink for Christmas and it was just a plain old. kitchen sink. And I cried and cried because I knew it meant I was going to have a sink now. And so it is the little things, you know, that really make you appreciate what you’ve got now. So I can so relate to that. So tell us about a significant event in your life that knocked you down.
Toby Dorr: And how did you pick yourself up?
Charli Hoffman: When I, I would say the first real turning point in my life was when I was 13 years old. Um, I had been abused most of my life from a family friend and that started before I was even Contra’s age. Um, and so I, when I was 13, I got kicked out. Um, I came home from school one day and my mom had put all of my stuff in my, in, uh, garbage bags on the porch and locked the house and told me I didn’t live there anymore.
Charli Hoffman: Um, and yeah, that was a shock, shock to the system. And it’s interesting now I’ve only recently started to realize, I mean, there, there’s been a lot that I’ve learned from that, but there are just so many layers to it. And so like a friend recently was like, Oh, my 12 year old did this. And my brain said like, Oh, she’s almost an adult.
Charli Hoffman: I was like, no, no,
Toby Dorr: Oh,
Charli Hoffman: a child.
Toby Dorr: yes.
Charli Hoffman: a child. It’s just that I had to grow up at 13. Um, you know, and I went and lived with my best friend for a month. Um, and then my guidance counselor found out and they made me go move into a shelter. And because the school year had already started, I was living in a shelter for teenagers two towns away.
Charli Hoffman: And every morning I would get up and I would take the bus into one city to another city. So two buses and then literally walk a mile to school. And this was ninth grade for me. You know, so that just trying to keep myself in school meant doing a lot of things that were unsafe and really changed me.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, that, that’s pretty significant, I’d say, and it’s amazing to me that at 12, 13, how old were you?
Charli Hoffman: Thirteen, yeah.
Toby Dorr: 13. At 13, that you had the wisdom to know that you should continue going to school and, and, and that it was worth all that effort to get there. That’s pretty amazing. Wow.
Charli Hoffman: I think it was I was really grasping at the familiar, because I loved school, I loved reading, books were my, my salvation for so long, and, um, my friends were my salvation, because life at home was hard, and so, it never even occurred to me not to go to school, and, you know, at that point, I, um, I was living in the shelter, but I was getting bullied by the girls who were also on my floor.
Charli Hoffman: And so, and I’m talking about like extreme bullying, you know, there’s different levels, but like I would get woken up with ice baths in the morning. And yeah, and so I would leave the shelter before that. And I would end up falling asleep on park benches. And I ended up, I became a sex worker. I was sex trafficked as a teenager because of that, because I, a guy pulled over one day and asked if I would help him out.
Charli Hoffman: And he took me to school and he gave me lunch money. And, and that’s where that started. And. Even though all of that was hard, I was on the bus, and I’ve always worked with kids and stuff, and so I learned how to do, like, voices, and Robin Williams was one of my idols. And I would make the bus drivers laugh, and it happened so frequently that my brain started to think, like, you know, everything is awful.
Charli Hoffman: Like, I don’t know when my next meal is, I
Toby Dorr: Mm-Hmm.
Charli Hoffman: gonna die today, like, literally. I was in so many unsafe situations, but I could make someone laugh. Like, there is a possibility here, too. Find a bright spot, even if it doesn’t last,
Toby Dorr: Interesting. That’s really interesting. So, um, what did you do when you turned 18?
Charli Hoffman: um, well, I moved out when I was 17. I went to college and That was not, not actually my choice initially. So I got kicked out for the first time at 13, but then I lived in 20 different places or so over the next four years until I turned 17. And part of that was in and out of psych wards. And by the time I came home after my fifth psych ward stay, when I was 17, I came home and I did my senior year from home.
Charli Hoffman: Um, My parents and I really had no relationship at that point, you know, I didn’t trust anything I mean, I came home to to an empty bedroom. I had a mattress on the floor. I didn’t have a door I didn’t have a dresser. I had no
Toby Dorr: Wow.
Charli Hoffman: and so I went off to college because my my parents I got into one college and because I applied very late and My parents said if you don’t go to college you need to move out And so I, I went to college.
Charli Hoffman: I was like, well, you know, what choice do I have? I didn’t have any credit to be able to meet a landlord. I didn’t know how to pay utilities. Like I didn’t know any of that. So I went to school.
Toby Dorr: Right? And, and so did you end up staying in college?
Charli Hoffman: Yes and no.
Toby Dorr: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
Charli Hoffman: I technically don’t have a degree at this point. But at my school, you need 120 credits to get a degree, and I have 120. 5. So I technically have enough credits, but I didn’t fulfill an exact degree.
Toby Dorr: some, so there’s some things they require that maybe you don’t have yet or something.
Charli Hoffman: Right, it’s a handful of classes.
Toby Dorr: But you do have the college education. So yeah, yeah, I think that’s important. You know, I think going to college is so much more than just studying the subjects you’re studying, because what the value, the real value of college, I think, is that it puts you in a group of people who are all trying to better themselves and learn, and it puts you in a state of mind where you can.
Toby Dorr: explore things and work things out and, and push yourself to do more. So I think there’s great value in going to college. It doesn’t matter if you get the degree or not.
Charli Hoffman: Yeah, well I think there’s, and college falls under this umbrella, I think there’s great value to putting yourself in situations where you’re not the smartest person in the room.
Toby Dorr: Oh, yes. Yes.
Charli Hoffman: and learn different cultures and, and also I think, you know, college could be a really valuable experience for more people if it was framed in that way, as opposed to you have to go and study and have a high GPA and only do it to get the career, you know, even now, like I know at some point I’m going to go back.
Charli Hoffman: And I’m so clear on what I want to do with my life. I’m like, now I know how to have conversations with my professors. Now I know how to talk to my
Toby Dorr: Yes. That’s excellent.
Charli Hoffman: students like that’s so different from when I was a kid when I was there, you know,
Toby Dorr: Yes, that is so valuable. I think. Yeah. And I love going to school. I have two bachelor’s degrees and two master’s degrees and I’d love to go get a PhD. You know, I could go to school forever. I love it that much. Um, but You know, it’s not an easy thing to do. So
Charli Hoffman: me too. I love school. I mean, I have found a lot of education strictly through nonfiction books and personal development and that stuff and, and taking online courses and there’s so much out there. For free or for lower cost than going to college that that people have access to
Toby Dorr: yes. I think that’s just beautiful, you know, and, and the state I live in, I think they have a program where you’re over 65, you can take college classes for free. You don’t get grades, but you can sit in on them. And I’m thinking, wow, I’m going to take all kinds of stuff. You know, I just think that’s cool.
Toby Dorr: So. Yeah.
Charli Hoffman: know technically Anyone can do that anywhere at any age. It’s up to the teacher Yeah, I have sat in on college courses before and just said, you know, I’m considering, you know I don’t know if I want to do something in this major when I come back Can I sit in on your course and if there’s a space in the room, the teachers have always said yes
Toby Dorr: wow. That’s interesting. I should check into that too. Cause wow, that’s so much possibilities. I love, I just love going to school. You know, when I was a kid, fall was my favorite time of year. It still is. But I used to love, you know, packing that school bag for the first time for the first day of school.
Toby Dorr: And, and learning who my teachers were. And, and I even loved homework. You know, I loved coming home and having a project to do. So that’s pretty cool.
Charli Hoffman: Same. Some of my greatest learning experiences in high school, especially, but also in college were getting to do projects that made me think outside of writing like a book report, you know?
Toby Dorr: Oh yeah. Book reports are a powerful thing to learn how to do because, you know, as we go through life, there’s always topics that we want to explore or we want to. convince other people about or promote. And if you learn how to do a book report when in grade school, you can at least put information together to share with people.
Toby Dorr: So I think that’s pretty powerful. Yeah. So who has been your most important mentor?
Charli Hoffman: I think, well, I’d say I’ve had a couple of actual mentors and people who identified themselves as such for me, um, or who I asked them specifically to be my mentor. And I’ve been really lucky in that sense. And also I think my most important mentor honestly has been my therapist.
Toby Dorr: Oh yes. They’re valuable mentors. I can tell you that. Yeah.
Charli Hoffman: I, I was in therapy. I’ve been in therapy since I was five years old. Um, I half adopted and so that was how my parents initially like wanted to set me up so that if I, when I found out that I would have support. Um, I didn’t find out in that way. I found out when I was living in the shelter. Um, but I, because I had been in therapy from so young and in multiple ways, like I, I was meeting with my, um, guidance counselor in elementary school every week, you know, and that was not normal.
Charli Hoffman: Like most kids, you know, didn’t have that. And then I had a therapist outside of the house and then I went through, it wasn’t the big brother, big sister program, but something similar to that in my family, um, where I had a big sister. I had someone who picked me up from school once a week and would take me out to lunch or take me to get ice cream or something and just talk to me about life.
Charli Hoffman: Um, and I’ve had therapists, regular therapists ongoing. And so I, the therapist I’m with now, I’ve been with, since early 2020, and they were, I mean, not only did they literally save my life calling the cops when I was in a life threatening situation, um, but they just had so much, um, responsibility for helping me to understand everything that I’ve been through, and, and living a life of choice now.
Toby Dorr: Yes. Yes. I love that. I love that. That’s pretty powerful. So tell us about how a turning point in your life propelled you in a new direction. I think you’ve had a lot of turning points, but
Charli Hoffman: Don’t we all, right? Life is just pivot after pivot.
Toby Dorr: right? Yes, that’s right.
Charli Hoffman: Yeah, I would say the, so that when I was 13, that was the biggest moment Like initial shift, but I, my trauma didn’t stop, um, obviously because I just got out of a bad relationship almost a little over two years ago. And so when I was in college, I was assaulted and after everything that I had been through growing up and also like having been in psych wards, like I basically just shut down and didn’t tell anyone and tried to like put it behind me. Um, that was not successful. The body keeps score, right?
Toby Dorr: right? Yes, it definitely does.
Charli Hoffman: And so that came up. Uh, I, and I ended up Overdosing in an attempt to kill myself, I ended up in another psych ward and the doctor who was there changed my life because he, um, refused to medicate me and waited until I told him what I had been through that landed me there, you know,
Toby Dorr: Mm-Hmm.
Charli Hoffman: that six months, but since I was, you know, going back to age of four
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Charli Hoffman: Eventually, he said, I, I don’t think that you have a chemical imbalance. I think that you are dealing with depression and PTSD and anxiety, all as a result of the trauma you’ve been through. And so my description is meditation.
Toby Dorr: Mhm. Trauma is definitely something that follows us around for our whole lives, you know, and and you’ve got to deal with it. And my problem was that I had an early childhood trauma and then I had another trauma in my young adult life when my daughter died shortly after birth. And I never dealt with either one of those traumas.
Toby Dorr: It was just like, okay, well, we just go on. And so this This angst, this brokenness just built up inside of me. And then one day it just exploded. And, and I decided it would be such a great idea to help someone escape from prison. And you know, that of course changed my life dramatically, but I think if I had dealt with those traumas, probably that wouldn’t have happened.
Toby Dorr: You know, it just, it just has a way of just exploding when you least expect it.
Charli Hoffman: right, well, we’re not taught, um, generally speaking, the majority of people, especially in America, but a lot of people around the world as well, that Um, to deal with trauma, to recognize trauma, to recognize, you know, big T versus little t trauma, things that are ongoing, that trauma is not just what happens to you, but what doesn’t happen to you, to deal with feelings, like to name feelings.
Charli Hoffman: We’re not taught most of those things, you know? Um, and there, even when I got out of my last relationship, so many people were like, Oh, you survived. I said, I’m surviving. I’m surviving every day. You know, trauma changes your body. It changes your brain. It changes the trajectory of your life.
Toby Dorr: Yes. And it’s a never ending process. You have to keep being aware of it and moving forward, I think, you know, and I do think that people who go through really difficult things and and survive them and even find a way to thrive in them to find a way to pull on that to propel them into something bigger. I think that yeah. We have a power that people who never have any kind of a trauma don’t have because I think it’s through those difficult times that we really have the biggest opportunities to grow, to learn and grow. And so the wisdom that comes with a trauma filled life, I mean, it can either kill you or it can really make you, you know, extraordinary in the way that you look at the world.
Charli Hoffman: Yeah, I think it’s, um, I, you know, I, I hear people say a lot of the time and no shade to anyone who says it because I used to say it, but now I’m very much against saying I’m grateful for my trauma because I’m not grateful for my trauma. I’m not grateful for what happened. I’m grateful for who I became, for who I chose to become in spite of it,
Toby Dorr: That’s right. Because it is a choice.
Charli Hoffman: Right. I, I had a friend,
Toby Dorr: to choose. Uh
Charli Hoffman: he said, um, you had all of the ingredients to become a habanero souffle, but instead you became a little cupcake. And I was like, thank you.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh. Yes. That’s so true. That’s so true. I love that. I love that. So say that again. I think that’s really important. Say that again. I want to be sure we all hear it.
Charli Hoffman: yeah, he said you had all of the ingredients to become a habanero souffle, but instead you decided to become a cupcake.
Toby Dorr: I love that. I think that’s powerful. I think that’s powerful. So what’s one question you wish I’d asked? Is there something you’d like to share with us that we haven’t touched on?
Charli Hoffman: Hmm. I think the one thing that I, I will answer, um, would be, The piece of advice that I give to everyone because I am a coach and so I work with a lot of people and I’m a meditation teacher and I meet a lot of people in that trauma informed space and all the time they’re like, you know, I don’t understand how you didn’t become, uh, you know, a drug addict, you know, locked up like all of these, you know, negative things.
Charli Hoffman: And I said, you know, it’s, it’s not, it That I had it all figured out, you know, it’s not that I, you know, knew everything I was going to do in order to survive it, or that I thought I could ever thrive, it’s that I just focused on the next right step, just the next right step, like, when I was on the bus making bus drivers laugh, I wasn’t thinking, oh, one day I’m going to be a meditation teacher and a clarity coach, you know, I was thinking, I can smile, I can
Toby Dorr: I like that.
Charli Hoffman: And then I can move forward like it’s just the next right step and that’s all you have to be responsible for,
Toby Dorr: I love that. That’s pretty powerful. And you know, we can, any kind of journey we want to undertake always begins with a step and then it has to have a next step and the next step. So, you know, those little steps may seem insignificant, but they are game changers.
Charli Hoffman: right? Well, and you think about I mean everything, right? It’s like if you you put on weight and you want to lose weight if you want to learn how to play an instrument if You want to learn how to run a marathon if you want to start a business like you don’t just the next day have a Business the next day your expert tell us the next day you’re running, you know Like it it’s always gonna be baby steps.
Charli Hoffman: The phrase is Um, How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
Toby Dorr: Right. That’s so true. Yes. That is so true. That’s so true. I love that. Is there a question you’d like to ask me?
Charli Hoffman: I think, you know, I was thinking about the different interviews that you’ve done, and I would love to know. What has been one of the most surprising things you’ve learned from someone?
Toby Dorr: You know, my very favorite interview that I’ve ever done. There’s a couple of them, but one of them, I was a podcast guest on another woman’s podcast and she, it was called friends, missing friends. And she was talking, she had her best friend died and. She realized that people didn’t really deal with friends who died.
Toby Dorr: You know, there’s things out there to talk about, you know, your parent dying or your child dying, but that they’re really, when your friend dies, you’re kind of just left on your own to get through it. And so she had me on her podcast and we talked about one of my best friends when I was in prison was a woman named Lisa Montgomery.
Toby Dorr: And Lisa was executed by the federal government in January of 2021. And It was stunning how traumatic that was and how, oh, it was just one of the most difficult things I’ve ever gone through. And so we talked through that. And I think that was one of my favorite interviews that I’ve ever heard, you know, played back that I’ve given because, you know, Lisa’s.
Toby Dorr: Life and Lisa’s execution are not things I generally talk about, but, but there’s such a big part of me, you know, it’s in there. And so it gave me this opportunity to, to talk about her. And, um, I think it turned into a beautiful interview. Um, I also, you know, I think I, I did an inner, I had a dateline episode and some of the things that came out in that dateline episode, when I watched it, I was like, Oh, I never knew that.
Toby Dorr: And it was things that I said in the interview, but you know, I didn’t realize what I was saying. And then when I heard myself, I was like, Oh yeah, that’s right. That is a powerful thing. So it’s kind of funny how you maybe say something all the time, but until you replay it being recorded, you don’t even realize what you’re saying.
Charli Hoffman: Well, and I don’t know, tell me if this has been your experience, but anytime I re listen or re watch one of my interviews, I have this moment of, like, wow, I really have done the work. You know, like, I really, I really know, like, who I am and what I want, and like, it’s, it’s, It’s, it’s astounding. Like, I, I feel it and then I listen to myself and I’m like, oh, okay.
Toby Dorr: There I did it. Find myself on the back. You know, I’ve come a long ways. Yeah, I think that’s pretty interesting. I think that’s really interesting. You certainly have come a long ways and you know, I’m so grateful that you’re sharing your story because I think that people who are really struggling when they hear someone tell a story that’s similar to theirs, they can grasp onto it and find a bit of hope and, and be inspired to, to take that next step forward.
Toby Dorr: Just that next best step, because that’s all you have to do is take the next step. You don’t have to accomplish something huge in your day. You just have to take a step and that’s doable for anybody.
Charli Hoffman: I love what you just said about, you know, when you see someone who’s going through something similar, or it’s almost like as bad, you know, as what you’ve
Toby Dorr: Right.
Charli Hoffman: I, I don’t resonate with someone who’s like, you know, Oh, I grew up on, working on Wall Street. And you know, I’ve never, life hasn’t been that hard.
Charli Hoffman: I’ve been really fortunate. It’s like, great for you. But, like, that is not my story. And then
Toby Dorr: That’s true.
Charli Hoffman: like, Oh, I went from being on welfare to owning a, you know, a million dollar company. It’s like, I want to learn from you because you know what it’s
Toby Dorr: Yes. Because you’ve done the work. You’ve done the work. You didn’t just fall into it. I know I have very little patience for small talk. You know, I want to talk about the hard things. I want to get into the guts of something and talk about the things that we don’t like to talk about. And, you know, when someone just has this perfect Ivy League life, they really don’t have that kind of a story behind them.
Toby Dorr: And I, I Love the difficult stories because that’s really what the essence of being a human being is about Overcoming that and learning from it and then sharing with others so that they can learn too. Yes. Yes I love it. So what’s one word that inspires you?
Charli Hoffman: I would say being. Being is my word for the year. And, um, I always pick a, uh, I actually don’t ever pick a word. Like, I don’t look for words that eventually fall. Um, and at the beginning of this year, a lot of people asked me, you know, if being meant, you know, like being present. And it does, but even deeper than that, it’s It’s being rather than doing, and I know you mentioned
Toby Dorr: Yes. Yes.
Charli Hoffman: and I thought, Oh, how kismet because I have spent so much of my life, especially with trauma, being hyper independent, just doing and doing and doing, trying to be enough in that sense of being able to check all the boxes and be a type a and all of that. And I wasn’t living my life. I wasn’t being, I wasn’t able to exist and just sit and, and, and feel it all.
Toby Dorr: I love that. I just love it because that’s so relates to me too. I’m a person who’s always doing and I have a million projects and I want to get things done, get things done, get things done. I have learned that I have to just like stop and be aware of my world around me and just kind of appreciate it.
Toby Dorr: You know, because doing your right doing gets a lot of stuff done, but it really doesn’t feed your soul. I think that being is what feeds your soul. So I love that word. I think that’s pretty powerful.
Charli Hoffman: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. So thank you so much, Charlie. I’ve loved having you on. And, uh, I look forward to sharing this story with the rest of the world.
Charli Hoffman: Excellent. Thanks so much, Toby, for having me.
Toby Dorr: You’re welcome.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for joining me on Fierce Conversations with Toby. Your support and listening means so much to me, and I hope today’s conversation makes a difference in your world. If you would like to support this podcast, there are many ways to do so. I found these ways tend to help the most in getting our message out into the world.
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Toby Dorr: Finally, sharing the link to this show with your friends, family, and anyone who wants to listen is appreciated more than I can say. Thank you again for joining me today and supporting this show by listening to it and sharing it with friends. Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Dorr, produced by Number 3 Productions.Toby Dorr: The theme song that you’re hearing now, Groovin was composed and arranged by Lisa Plass. Lisa also plays the flute for the theme with Carolyn Parody on piano and Tony Ventura on bass. Find out more at tobydorr. com. This is Fierce Conversations with Toby. Escape your prison.
