Toby Dorr: Hi, everyone, and welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby, the show where we discover the silver lining in life’s most difficult stories. I’m your host, Toby Dorr.
Toby Dorr: my guest today is Bathsheba and I’m so delighted to introduce her. She, we’re going to talk about being vulnerable today. So welcome Bathsheba.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Well, thank you for having me. I so appreciate having these conversations. There’s, there’s self see, um, um, self healing for me, but I love being able to share it with someone as well.
Toby Dorr: Yes. I think it’s a pretty, you know, I think being vulnerable is something that we often shy away from, but actually it’s very powerful and we should embrace it. So I’m looking forward to this conversation. Uh, before we start, can you tell me what your favorite color is and why?
Bathesheba Tolbert: Well, it’s red. That’s a powerful color.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Yes. I love red. Primarily because when you think, when I look at red, I think fire, power, compassion, royalty, you know, all the things that sometimes we don’t walk out being, but truly we are all that. You know, you just have to do it. So I, that’s why I love her.
Toby Dorr: II’m wearing some red today too, without even knowing it was her color.
Toby Dorr: So there you go. I, my color is like a really bright. powerful fuchsia pink. So,
Bathesheba Tolbert: which is
Toby Dorr: almost a red, but yeah, yeah, it’s pretty fun and powerful. So Bathsheba, what’s the hardest decision you’ve ever had to make?
Bathesheba Tolbert: The hardest decision I’ve ever had to make is to walk in my healing. To not ignore it, not shy away from how that hurts, but it hurts.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I’m going to walk through it. A lot of times we is something we feel. I think it’s every day that step that’s stepping into my piece. I’m stepping into my dress. So just the fear was being real in that moment and just walking through it because it’s every day. I might be smiling. I might be crying. You never know.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I found in my own journey that The all the years I spent trying to pretend like I didn’t have any hurts or any wounds.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Yeah
Toby Dorr: We’re not happy and I couldn’t Open myself up to joy until I finally embraced all the wounds and all the hurts So I think it’s really important.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Yeah,
Toby Dorr: we give voice to that So, tell us about a significant event in your life that knocked you down, and how did you pick yourself up?
Bathesheba Tolbert: I would say, um, when I was married before, and I was going through a divorce, and my children were living, um, half the time with me, half the time with my husband, I found out Actually on my wedding day from my, my husband now that my daughter had been, um, molested by a family member and it was hush, hush.
Bathesheba Tolbert: No one told me. And then my daughter basically let me know, um, that day cause she was fearful of going back into the environment that did that. So for me, it, it shocked me to the core. Um, I grew up. And I still do, you know, you do it to others and they’ll do the same back to you, you know, you know, basically reaping what you’ve already planted, which was peace, love and all that.
Bathesheba Tolbert: That someone has. Just disregarded the fact that you’ve been that person in their life, supporting them and loving on them. And then they do something that way. You have to think to yourself, the person is not right. How, even though you’ve done me wrong, how can I plant into you some kind of peace and understand that you do need help.
Bathesheba Tolbert: But you can get help. You don’t have to stay there. You may have made a mistake. You may have devastated me, definitely devastated my daughter. But how can you grow from? How can we all because that’s character building to me? Yes, of course. Not initially. I wasn’t there. Me really understanding, like, because I was devastated.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Oh, yes. Step back out of the emotion of it, of the devastation and say, how can I grow from this? Because I don’t want to be bitter. I don’t want to destroy me. I don’t want to be the victim in this, even though in a sense I, we were, but how can I grow from
Toby Dorr: it? Right. That’s really important. And I know a lot of your work is about vulnerability.
Toby Dorr: So tell us what vulnerability is and why it’s important.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I believe vulnerability is a, is a growing block. It’s a block that you need in your life in order to step into who you are. You can’t really become. That’s Sheba, Toby. You can’t become that person unless you allow yourself to see where you’re at, how that affected you, and be able to step into your next step of purpose.
Bathesheba Tolbert: We weren’t born to be perfect. We were born honestly to be an impact on other people. So how can I impact if I am not vulnerable? How can I allow myself to grow if I can’t help someone else grow? So I think the vulnerability is not just for me. But it’s for the person viewing it as well. Vulnerability is not I’m being perfect and I’m showing you this perfect little broken piece.
Bathesheba Tolbert: No, I’m shattered to the floor, bleeding out and look at me
Toby Dorr: and look at me anyway. I love that.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Hopefully you’ll, you’ll draw some strength from that.
Toby Dorr: I love that. So I think there are a lot of benefits to embracing our vulnerability and how it can help us to encourage others. So what do you talk about and, uh, The benefits of embracing our vulnerability.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I think the benefit, the main benefit I kind of touched on before is that when you’re vulnerable, you see yourself for who you are. I’m raw. This is, you know, people say, Oh, that triggered me. And I’m, I’m not saying this as a, you know, saying it was something bad, but that triggered me or, you know, that’s, that’s beyond my boundary.
Bathesheba Tolbert: But I think The trigger is because there’s stuff in the background that we don’t acknowledge, that we don’t want to, because honestly, when I first started seeing the things that have hindered me, and I’m thinking I’m all good, and someone cuts me off on the freeway, and then I get rage, and then I’m crying, and I’m like, Am I, am I crazy?
Bathesheba Tolbert: You’re like, what’s going on here? Fear of being vulnerable, being exposed. But if you can’t get through that, it hinders you.
Toby Dorr: It holds you back, doesn’t it? Yeah.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Yeah. You’re not able to truly give your heart. You’re not able to truly grow and be an impact. I really believe that we’re all here for a purpose.
Bathesheba Tolbert: The things, the bad, horrible catastrophes in our lives, Are here to help others. I mean, that’s the only way I can be and, and see that because if I don’t see it that way, the things that happen, I’m like, I would be the most. dreadful, bitter person, you know, you wouldn’t even want to look at me cause I’ll give you the, you know, it’s just not worth all of that.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I think it makes us grow into the beautiful people that we are. Scarred, flawed.
Toby Dorr: I think it’s the scars that give us strength and being vulnerable really is being honest with yourself about who you are. And you’re going to be somebody just a little bit different tomorrow and the next day and the next day.
Toby Dorr: But in this moment, who are you really? And what’s the best way to approach something? So
Bathesheba Tolbert: I have to say this, though. I think a lot of what my generation went through is what their parents went through with their parents. I remember a. thing that kind of triggered me as a young girl. I think I was maybe in fifth grade and my father’s mother came to visit us and I had been out in the sun and we were in the pool and everything and she walks over to my, my family is very mixed culturally and she said, baby, she looked at my arms.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Oh, you’re getting so black. And I remember I was just like, devastated. Like, was there something wrong with being black and all of this? And even though I am black, but you know, my grandmother grew up where her mother passed. So she put all of that generation of trying to be something. Into that one moment with me.
Bathesheba Tolbert: And I, to this day, it’s like, it made a presence in my life of something was wrong instead of, and that’s one thing that I don’t want to do now in my life by having all of that stuff that I haven’t dealt with now, putting it. On my daughter. God bless her heart because I’m pretty sure I put some other stuff on her.
Bathesheba Tolbert: But I didn’t deal with those scars and that pain and the devastation that same I would put into my daughter. And it was something, even though I was very young then, but I see it clearly now that. That came from her mom to my dad, to me. So it’s like, we got to break that and allow ourselves. No, that’s not, I’m not putting that on me.
Toby Dorr: I love that. So what, how do you overcome the fear of vulnerability? Because when you mentioned that word to somebody, the first thing they do is go, ah, not me. So how do you move past that? Yes.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Um, for me, um, what I did is, It was every time because it didn’t start out like, okay, I wake up, I’m going to be vulnerable today, but time, those times of pain would, would come up.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I started journaling. I started writing them. What am I feeling? Why am I feeling it really delving in? What was that trigger for me? And the more I wrote, then I began to speak it, Oh, okay, this is why I am behaving this way, because. All of these other things, I became more aware and it’s scary. Honestly, that first time of writing down those thoughts, I cried every single night.
Bathesheba Tolbert: This is why I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to do it. But if I don’t do it, all of that. Energy has to go somewhere.
Toby Dorr: That’s right. You know, I found myself through journaling while I was in prison and I have a box over there on my other table and it’s probably got 30 journals in it. And they’re all full and they’re all the rawest.
Toby Dorr: But that’s how I found myself. And I think that something magic happens when you take a pen in your hand and put it to paper. And it doesn’t happen when you put your fingers on the keyboard. It’s not the same. You have to write and just write and let it out and then go back and read it and feel it and live it and let go of it.
Toby Dorr: You know, I just think journaling is so powerful.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I wish I would have said, To keep my journals because when I would write it, I would burn it as a symbol of releasing that now.
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Now with it, at least I mean, it took a couple of years for me to do it. But every time I felt like, okay, I’m I finally got to the point that doesn’t affect me the same way it, I mean, it’s always going to be an effect.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Come on, but it won’t initial, you know, retaliation and, and just the fear, the trigger, all of that, you know, it’s valid. The anxiety is valid, you know, people have it, but how much less than anxiety will affect you if you dealt with what we’re stemming from.
Toby Dorr: That’s so true. And you know, there is some power and value in, in burning something too.
Toby Dorr: I, I burnt my first wedding dress, you know, one day it was like, I got to let go, you know, and there’s some power in that. Yeah, it was quite an event and it was on an impulse. I hadn’t landed. I, but, yeah. Anyway, it worked for me.
Bathesheba Tolbert: You would have planned it, you would have bought s’mores, you would have had a little snack.
Toby Dorr: Yes, that’s right, that’s right. So, who has been your most important mentor?
Bathesheba Tolbert: My most important mentor. Vocally, because I’m a singer, I would say Barbra Streisand. She taught me. To live that moment, live that phrase, live that verse and allow that to transfer out to people. And that has changed the way I sing.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Like, like anytime a song gets kind of born to me and I’m singing and singing and singing, I go back to those steps of, what is this song saying to me? How do I come up with it? And it’s something that I honestly do with people when I have a little bit of a challenge with them in a sense of our communication is not just flowing.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I go back. What am I really trying to say and convey to this person? Because they, they’re not hearing me, you know? So it transcends, the music transcends into how I communicate. So.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I could see that. And you know, I spent a lot of my life as a dog trainer and when I would go to work, you know, you got a little dog back there.
Toby Dorr: Excellent. I love dogs. Today I have a cat. He’s sitting behind my shoulder over there. I can’t do it right now. He just stepped down. Yeah, but, uh, I love dogs. Excellent. When I would go to work all of my the people who reported to me I kind of identified them as a dog breed in my head Because I knew if I had a border collie I needed to approach a border collie in this particular way And if I had a poodle I needed to approach it in a totally different way and that really helped me You know interact with people To you know as strongly as I could and You know, maybe as a musician, you kind of think of people, I mean, I think I would think of people as song lyrics or music styles, you know, all that person’s all jazz.
Toby Dorr: I need, you know, heated up or this person’s love stories or, you know, I don’t know. Yeah, it’s kind of interesting how, uh, what it is that you do becomes a way to identify other things in your life.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Oh yeah.
Toby Dorr: So I think
Bathesheba Tolbert: that’s pretty fun. A part of what makes me, me, you know. And the funny thing is growing up, I started singing when I was three.
Bathesheba Tolbert: My dad had me sing in front of people like a whole kind of, I’m a family of pastors. So at five years old, he hands me the mic and tells me to sing. So that’s another dramatic, that’s what’s going on. But I learned to just not watch the room, but just go internally and bring out and not focus on their reaction or the people in the room, but just really, what can I give to them?
Bathesheba Tolbert: You know?
Toby Dorr: What’s your favorite type of music to sing?
Bathesheba Tolbert: Oh my gosh, I love Love, love, love. Inspirational like Celine Dion. Um, martin Tyson. Anything. Honestly, I love it all. But those are the songs that the lyrics, the music, the emotion that comes from it. It’s like a journey. You try to get them through that song and it’s like I feel inspired.
Bathesheba Tolbert: So that that’s my very favorite. But then on those hard days, you know, Definitely pop and rock.
Toby Dorr: How about music to listen to? What do you like to put in when you go for a drive in the car?
Bathesheba Tolbert: Oh, that’s funny. I literally put in, um, I don’t know the style. I guess you would say like meditation music. Cause I like to stimulate and come.
Bathesheba Tolbert: So I just love here ocean or, uh, or just anything that’s just really, Taking you and transcending you out of, you might be driving, but your mind is being stimulated in another way and thoughts and creativity. I always have a tape recorder or something that can record in my car because I always have something and I’m like, okay, so the court, because I just had,
Toby Dorr: yeah, that’s excellent.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, you know, I live in Northern Virginia and we’re just like maybe a 30 minute drive from the mountains in West Virginia and on my husband’s days off, we like to go for car rides. And in the last month or so, we found ourselves in West Virginia, like three or four times. And every time we head for West Virginia, we both start singing.
Toby Dorr: West Virginia, I was like, get that song out of my head. You have to put some Loretta Lynn on
Bathesheba Tolbert: when you’re in West Virginia.
Toby Dorr: Yes, that’s right. Hey, we went to Patsy Cline’s house one day. That was one of our trips. Oh, that’s so cool. I mean, it’s this little tiny house. It was just really cool. And there were some of her dresses there.
Toby Dorr: Some of her handwritten songs and things. It was pretty cool. So, yeah, it’s pretty interesting living around here. So, have you ever seen Les Miserables, the movie? I mean, I know it’s a play too. Oh my gosh. My husband and I are, we went to the movies to see it when it came out, you know, ten years ago. And we loved it so much that the next day we went back and we went back like six times to see it because Those songs are so powerful.
Bathesheba Tolbert: So, and take you, even though you’re in a storyline, it takes you in a totally different storyline for that care.
Toby Dorr: You can just feel the vulnerability and, uh, Anne Hathaway song that she sings when she’s down on the docks. It’s like, Oh my gosh. You know, and, and autumn came, he was gone. And it’s like,
Bathesheba Tolbert: Oh,
Toby Dorr: you know, it’s just so powerful.
Toby Dorr: to you. I just love it. Music is pretty powerful. I love that. I’m going to have to go and listen to some of your songs now that we’ve talked. It’s pretty interesting.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I
Toby Dorr: definitely will. So tell us about a turning point in your life, propelled you in a new direction.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Um, divorce. That’ll do it for sure. Of course.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Definitely. Um, I never, and this is not saying anything bad about anyone else, but I never thought of myself. I knew I would have children. I knew I would be married, but I really thought, okay, I’m going to be married. Way longer, but I got married sooner. I was like 25 and divorced at 34 after 10 years. To me, it was almost like I failed.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I failed on my family and I walked around. So long with that guilt of, I could have done better. Why did I give up? You know, just the thing, but sometimes people grow apart and they need that time to tell them who they are. Because I think I was getting, putting myself in a box of, okay, I’m a wife. I’m supposed to do this.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I’m a mom. I’m supposed to do this, you know, and it gets to the point where. Because of what you’re supposed to do, you don’t become who you are, you know. Yes, that’s so true. Yes. When the, when basically we, we divorced, it was amicable, you know, but when we divorced, it’s almost like a side of me died, but I think it had to, because I was in that box of, you do this, you get married, these are your steps.
Bathesheba Tolbert: This is what you’re supposed to do. Now it’s like, well, what am I? And I had, I had me your best achievement. The best being, uh, growing as that Shiva and how you interact with your Children, your ex spouse. And the funny thing is, um, we celebrated my daughter’s 25th birthday yesterday and my husband, my ex husband and all the kids were right there.
Bathesheba Tolbert: And it was amazing of the growth. of that time being dispelled and a new chapter. So it really, I’m glad that I was able to get divorced and still grow as a person and still even have that communication, that one on one with him. We’re totally new people to each other, but I see the growth that would not have been there if we had stayed in.
Bathesheba Tolbert: That
Toby Dorr: is so important, I think, and so mature. Uh, to be able to have a relationship with your ex and have this big, you know, combined family. I think it’s really important for your children and you know, unfortunately that did not happen in my case. Um, but I think it’s beautiful when it can happen. I think it’s pretty powerful
Bathesheba Tolbert: and, uh,
Toby Dorr: You get to that when
Bathesheba Tolbert: you have that with the person, the respect that you give your children regarding that person is just as well because sometimes parties not really amicable, you know, to do it, but either respect you have.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Even when they don’t deserve it. That’s so true. It, I think it puts them at ease a little bit, you know,
Toby Dorr: with that. I think that’s true. So, um, was there ever a time you really felt in prison and what did you do to liberate yourself? And it may be this same, uh, story of getting divorced, but, you know, I feel like All of us kind of have prisons of some sort and we create them ourselves, you know, mine was duty and perfection and you know, I wouldn’t allow myself to just be me.
Toby Dorr: And I realized, you know, that for most of my life, I kind of held joy at bay because I didn’t have time for it because the work wasn’t done yet. So what, what imprisoned you in your life and how did you break free of it? Well, after my
Bathesheba Tolbert: divorce, I used to sing all the time, professionally divorce, you know, and Oh, single mom work, work, work, work.
Bathesheba Tolbert: And I stopped professionally. I found myself. Eight years from that time of being divorced that I was doing very well professionally, you know, I’ve gone back to school, got a master’s degree in marketing, all of this wonderful stuff. But the me, the thing that makes me me and become me in music. It wasn’t there.
Bathesheba Tolbert: And I felt like I was doing everything right. I love what I was doing, but I wasn’t me because I was, that one part I kept in this little box. I didn’t want to, you know, I can’t focus on that because I have all this other stuff. So I did feel in prison, um, where I couldn’t express because there’s so much healing and so much and just singing.
Bathesheba Tolbert: And I know when people say, Oh, but I can’t sing. Um, It doesn’t matter having, having the music there and you’re singing along. It’s like, it’s your own declaration. And one thing I had to get back to, not necessarily singing professionally, but just singing, I mean, I hadn’t sang even around the house for eight years.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I was just so wild. Busy, busy, um, achieving, you know, and I never, I just didn’t think that I need to go back to that because my mind was, okay, I got to do all these other steps. Yeah. I’m required to do to survive and support my children and you know,
Toby Dorr: yeah. So you found your voice again. Yeah. I love that. I love that.
Toby Dorr: So what’s one question you wish I’d had that I didn’t.
Bathesheba Tolbert: One question I wish I wish
Toby Dorr: I had asked you that I didn’t. Is there something else you’d like to share that I didn’t touch on?
Bathesheba Tolbert: I think you touched on a lot, but I think the main, the one question I would have asked, like to be asked was who is Bathsheba?
Toby Dorr: Oh, I love that question. And, and let me add to it too and give you a chance to answer it. Is Bathsheba the name you were born with?
Bathesheba Tolbert: Yes. Believe
Toby Dorr: it or not. Wow. What a powerful name. So tell us who is Bathsheba? Well,
Bathesheba Tolbert: before I tell you who’s Bathsheba, I’ll say this. I was born. The year right before the major earthquake in California.
Bathesheba Tolbert: And a month later I was born and my dad said, you’ve been, you should, you told us you were coming. You were shaking everything up. You’ve been shaking everything up ever since.
Toby Dorr: I love that.
Bathesheba Tolbert: You’re right. You’re right. I was that child that was always questioning asking, but I think that that, It’s what made me me.
Bathesheba Tolbert: It helped me to grow because the more knowledge I had, the more power I possess. So, but I would say when you, when I think of who I am, I am definitely bruised. I’m definitely scarred, but through those I’m beautiful because I’m and I am 100%. Who you see there is no camouflage. Um, I tell my, my, uh, followers on Facebook, I call them best, my, my beauties, and I say with the floss and you have integrity, you have compassion and that’s what makes you a queen.
Bathesheba Tolbert: I love
Toby Dorr: that. I love that. That’s beautiful.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Thank you.
Toby Dorr: Is there a question you’d like to ask me?
Bathesheba Tolbert: I think I would love to hear your story of how you went from being in prison, having a bestseller, to going out and empowering women. I would love to hear that.
Toby Dorr: Well, you know, I realized when I was in prison that I had a gift of time that I had never had in my whole life.
Toby Dorr: And so I had time to spend on myself. And I use that time really to figure out who I was and to analyze my life and figure out what I, Wished I had done a little differently. How could I repair some of those things? And who did I want to be going forward?
Bathesheba Tolbert: Yeah,
Toby Dorr: but there was a moment in 2019 when I realized that every woman has the ability to do just that but that Many women don’t know how to start don’t know where the starting point is for that So I created a series of three workbooks to empower women You To find themselves and to be who they were meant to be and that has just become my passion You know, I think so many women of course, I work with women who are in prison, but I work with all kinds of women too because You know, there’s women who are in unhappy marriages who are, you know, recovering addicts of some kind There’s so many things we have to work on And women tend to put themselves last because they have children to take care of a spouse to take care of You know all these duties So, it just became, um, my passion, really, to help women find themselves and find who they were.
Toby Dorr: And I think, you know, if I can tell my story to someone, and it changes the way they move forward, then the time that I spent in prison was valuable time, it wasn’t wasted time. So, that’s where I came from that,
Bathesheba Tolbert: yeah. Well, you have definitely become my sister in, in these other women, because that is my declaration.
Bathesheba Tolbert: Even though I’ve gone through things, I’ve gone through it to help other ladies go through there.
Toby Dorr: Yes, that’s so true. And people can relate and you know, they, they can’t relate to someone who says do this, this and this, but they can relate to someone that says, I was there and I did this, you know, though I can grab that.
Toby Dorr: So, yes, I think it becomes pretty powerful. You know, one new thing that I’ve added this summer to my offering is that for any book club that reads my memoir, I give them a Zoom call at the end of their book club meeting so they can ask me whatever questions they want. And I just, you know, offer that for free just to be able to share my story even deeper.
Toby Dorr: So I just love it. I would
Bathesheba Tolbert: do that.
Toby Dorr: Yes. It’s so much fun. It’s so much fun. So what’s one word that inspires you?
Bathesheba Tolbert: Brave.
Toby Dorr: I like that. Yeah. I like brave. Brave’s a powerful word. And I think, you know, like I read somewhere, someone said fearless. Is it about not being afraid? It’s about moving forward even though you are.
Toby Dorr: And I think, you know, that’s, that’s important
Bathesheba Tolbert: for me. It’s an action word of I may not be starting out at every step. That’s a step of break. That’s right.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, and sometimes the best you can do on a given day is just put one foot in front of the other and take one step, but at least it’s a step, so. Oh, I love that.
Toby Dorr: Well, thank you so much, Beth Sheba. I have so enjoyed meeting you, and I’m so glad you reached out to us and definitely I’m gonna be following you, so, oh, wonderful. I wanna see more about what Bathsheba’s all about. So I.
Toby Dorr: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Thank you, Bathsheba.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for joining me on Fierce Conversations with Toby. Your support and listening means so much to me, and I hope today’s conversation makes a difference in your world. If you would like to support this podcast, there are many ways to do so. I found these ways tend to help the most in getting our message out into the world.
Toby Dorr: Number one, subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen to, or watch this podcast. If you can leave a five star rating or a like on this episode on YouTube, that helps even more. And if you leave a comment or a review, that helps the most. The next way you can support Fierce Conversations with Toby is to join our Patreon at patreon. com slash fierce conversations. All tiers come with a downloadable digital gratitude journal created by me and membership in a private Facebook group that I also lead. Most importantly, 10 percent of all proceeds from your subscription will go directly to donating my workbooks to women in prison.
Toby Dorr: Finally, sharing the link to this show with your friends, family, and anyone who wants to listen is appreciated more than I can say. Thank you again for joining me today and supporting this show by listening to it and sharing it with friends. Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Dorr, produced by Number 3 Productions.
Toby Dorr: The theme song that you’re hearing now, Groovin was composed and arranged by Lisa Plasse. Lisa also plays the flute for the theme with Carolyn Parody on piano and Tony Ventura on bass. Find out more at tobydorr. com. This is Fierce Conversations with Toby. Escape your prison.
