Toby Dorr: Hi, everyone, and welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby, the show where we discover the silver lining in life’s most difficult stories. I’m your host, Toby Dorr.
Toby Dorr: Today, my guest on Fierce Conversations with Toby is my friend, Karen Mitchell Grant. And I was trying to remember, Karen, how we met. And I think you were putting together some kind of a social group you wanted to create, and you reached out on Facebook and asked if people were interested.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Yeah, I was putting together a social group on trauma, and I wanted to see what people thought about trauma, because some people have the idea that it’s a small T and a big T, and I wanted to see what their thoughts were, because to me, um, trauma, Is trauma. Uh, and all of how the person responds or reacts, whether it may be
Toby Dorr: Ah, I see. Yes. I remember we talked then and then we stayed in touch and I know I spent a lot of time talking to you about your mom at one point because your mom was an amazing strong woman who I’m hoping to use in one of my future works. Um, but today I want to talk to you. I’ve been following you on Facebook and you just ran a marathon with your son and your daughter.
Karen Mitchell Grant: my daughter. Yeah, it was a five K that we did. I wish I could say it was a marathon, but I cannot. It was a five K and we did it for my son’s, um, dental practice. This, this, uh, his dentist works only with, um, adults that are, uh, disabled. And so we had seen the marathon because we’d been with her for a good time and I had never participated and I decided that this year I was going to.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And so my daughter wanted to join in. And so then it became a family affair.
Toby Dorr: I think that’s beautiful. And I saw the pictures. And so tell us a little bit about your son, William.
Karen Mitchell Grant: William is, um, he’s my oldest child or adult. I keep calling them children,
Toby Dorr: They’re always children, aren’t they? Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And, um, he is, um, wonderful. Okay. So I’m a little prejudice. He’s wonderful. He’s 33 years old. Um, and he had, and he’s what, uh, is considered in the, in the world, I guess, special needs. He’s autistic. He’s also, um, I’m gonna put it this way. He’s diagnosed with autism, um, blindness and nonverbal. And, um, but when you’re around him, you would not, you just don’t even, you don’t even remember that, but that is, you know, That’s what’s diagnosed with him.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And so when I got ready to do this run, I told him what I was doing. And, uh, and the next thing you know, we were training and it became a family affair
Toby Dorr: that’s beautiful.
Karen Mitchell Grant: uh,
Toby Dorr: So you pushed William in a wheelchair through the race, and the reason why he’s in a wheelchair is because he’s blind, and it would be too difficult to lead him through and not get any obstacles. Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: We, instead of it taking us an hour and 15 minutes, it would have taken us four hours if we had to walk it. So, and it was all heels,
Toby Dorr: always hills,
Karen Mitchell Grant: It was all heels. Oh my goodness. But these were, these look like mountains. And the thing about it is we, I had called and I said, well, what’s, what’s the, um, you know, what’s it look like?
Karen Mitchell Grant: What’s the terrain like? He said, Oh, it’s relatively flat.
Toby Dorr: Wow.
Karen Mitchell Grant: So I thought, you know,
Toby Dorr: Uh
Karen Mitchell Grant: we’re
Toby Dorr: huh.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Well, it was, it was so good. And we had so many experiences while going up the hills. It was as if God had said, um, look, Karen, I’m going to send you some earth angels to come alongside you. And they are going to help you up this hill.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And this is no joke, Toby. There were at least eight to twelve people that helped us up those hills. Pushed William up the hill. And one woman’s name
Toby Dorr: Oh, wow.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And all the way up the hill, Grace stayed with us. It was so, it was such a beautiful experience of, of just Your help comes when you don’t even realize that you need
Toby Dorr: about grace a lot in my memoir, Living With Conviction, because I really do believe that grace got me through. I mean, it kept me alive. It saved my life in two separate instances that I know of. And I think it’s beautiful that you literally and figuratively had grace helping you up those hills. I think that’s beautiful.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And, and this was the thing when coming out of the, I call it the chute, coming out of the chute, right? Um, usually when you, when you start a race, it’s flat. I mean, really flat. Well, coming out, it went, it started up the hill. To get out of the driveway, you had to go up a hill. So I said to my daughter, I said, Oh, Sarah, I don’t think that we have trained for this.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And she said, no, she said, mom, you know, my, my daughter, I love her. She says, she says, mom, God got us, God got us. And, uh, and he did all the way. And it was so funny. There was one point where my daughter and I separated and I’m talking to William. I’m saying, okay, William, here we go. We’re, we’re getting ready to go.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And we’re getting ready to turn this corner. And it was straight Hill, straight up. And little did I know that My daughter and a few of the people that she had met, cause she’s, she’s a socialite. So she met plenty of people going up that Hill. And, um, she had sent help my way said, if you see a woman in a yellow sweatshirt, that’s my mom.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Ask
Toby Dorr: Oh, wow. That’s beautiful.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And all the way, all the way, God was with the way
Toby Dorr: So, what do you think that you learned from doing that marathon?
Karen Mitchell Grant: Oh my gosh. When I woke up. So if I can just tell you the story of when I woke up, I had I, I had, I had nerves. I had a lot of nerves and, uh, and, um, and I was like, you know, it was, it was a first for us. It was a first. And so I didn’t know what to expect. So I get in my car and I turn on the car. Now, look, I’ve turned that car on thousands of times, thousands of times.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Get in the car and there’s this song that’s playing and says, Put it on the altar. And I said, this could be no one but God. It’s like, take all your cares and cast them on me, put them on the altar. And so I just said, you know, Lord, be with us while we do this, be let you be glorified. And let me tell you something that was the most experiencing that entire walk with all these different people.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And with all of them, just. There was no competition because you got to understand that when you’re doing a race, you’re also getting timed. So everyone, everyone forgot about their time in
Toby Dorr: I think that’s beautiful. Yeah. Oh, wow.
Karen Mitchell Grant: yeah, and, and I could do nothing. I could do nothing but thank the Lord and just realize how much he is in my life.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And, um, because it was him that, that got me back up running because, um, I had had a fall. And if you ask me what was one detrimental thing that happened to me, it was when I had this fall, I thought, man, I had retired and my goal was to do a five and 10 K in every state. And yeah, in every state, Toby, I wanted to do a five and 10 K.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Um, cause when I retired, I didn’t
Toby Dorr: hmm. Mm hmm. We just
Karen Mitchell Grant: in the, uh,
Toby Dorr: transitioned to a whole new set of, uh,
Karen Mitchell Grant: I transitioned. Exactly. That’s all I did. And, and I had, I had a fall and my whole story became about the fall. I couldn’t talk about anything but the fall. And, um, finally it was, um, and it, and it felt, it, I couldn’t, I didn’t see my way out of it until I just started saying.
Karen Mitchell Grant: You know what, Lord, I’m giving this. I’m giving this to you. I can’t keep talking. I can’t keep this is going to be my life. And I did. I gave it up. And the next thing you know, I’m back training. I’m back walking. And I’m getting ready to do a marathon, um, workshop so that I can
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm. I think that’s beautiful. So you know, maybe you just didn’t know that you had, uh, different kinds of marathons in your life instead of a five and a 10 K in every state. Maybe you have a different marathon goal now.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Yeah, I actually do. I have some wonderful things that I’m working on and planning on. And, uh, yeah,
Toby Dorr: I think that’s just beautiful. And so tell me, you know, when I first talked to. You about being on my podcast and I told you that it was a podcast where we talk about hard things where we talk about difficult journeys and what we learn from them and your answer to me was Well, I don’t know if I’ll fit or not because I really don’t view my things as difficult or hard.
Toby Dorr: And so tell us a little bit about that because I think, you know, perspective is one of the ways that we can overcome difficult things and hard things because as long as we look at them in a positive light where we have a spark to just embrace them. So tell me a little bit about William as a child and finding out that you had a special needs child and how you approach that and what a difference it’s made in your life, having William be a part of it.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Well, discovering at 18 months old that William was autistic. Um, it took me by surprise, and it took my husband by surprise. And, um, the one thing I really loved about our, our marriage and he’s passed away now, but the one thing I really loved about our marriage was the fact that we were communicators. We talked
Toby Dorr: I love that too. That’s how my marriage is now.
Karen Mitchell Grant: yeah, I can’t even imagine, um, being, even being a friend with someone that didn’t know how, that didn’t want to communicate or didn’t even want to learn how to communicate and what they considered to be a relationship with another person. And so. We talked about everything. So we came home and we came home with this little cutie.
Karen Mitchell Grant: I mean, he was 18 months old, but he was just, you know, he just was a little cutie. And they said, you know, he’s nonverbal. He’s, uh, he’s autistic. And, and I thought, okay. All right. Well, let’s just go from here. And so we did all the things that every, uh, parent does when they find out they have a special needs child.
Karen Mitchell Grant: They, they go through the routine of finding community because community is very important. And, um, they go through the routine of finding out what they can do and, and, but William’s the one that led me. He, he really, he’s the one that really showed me what. Um, he was willing to do and what he was not willing to do.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And I think the one thing he want, he didn’t want to be do, he didn’t want to have done to him was be labeled. I remember a few times, um, he had this thing called a Hawk and the, the Hawk was, he was to use it at school and he was supposed to press whatever he wanted to say, you know, and it was pictures and everything like that.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And William walked in, in the house. I think he had done it for maybe four or five days. He walked in and he put it up on the credenza and I said, well, William, we’re supposed to use this here at the house. And so I said, well, and I would bring it back down and he, and he put it right back up. And I said, well, I think that’s clear we’re not, we’re not going to do that.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And so we did. And so I, I never, um, took him to be, I mean, I could, I can read him. If you’re around him, it might take you about 10 minutes and then you can read him. He’s very clear on what he wants to do and what he doesn’t want to do. So I never, um, felt like I was at a disadvantage and I’m always shocked.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And it’s not like I’m, Playing that. I’m shocked. I really am shocked when someone says, Oh, what
Toby Dorr: Yeah, yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: I thought they saw and they’re feeling sorry for me. Don’t feel sorry for me. I think you have to look at how someone responds. I got a loving son. And so it’s no wonder no one that knows us didn’t expect for us to do anything like this.
Karen Mitchell Grant: I mean, they expected us to do this. It was the norm. It was just how we, we live. And I believe that he was given to me that he’s a gift. And, um, because I know a lot of things I’m much more conscious about simply because he’s in my life. Like there’s people I wouldn’t bring in my life. If, if they, if I sense something, or even if William says he has a
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Thing going on with him. Um, so I, I feeling sorry and, and, uh, no, I cannot compute.
Toby Dorr: You know, I, I can relate to that in a lot of ways. Um, I had a son who was hearing impaired and I felt like just the fact that we had to do things a little bit differently. We had a richer experience in life, you know, so there were, you know, I think when you have to slow down a little bit and be aware of what’s going on around you, that that’s a blessing, you know, you just take so much more from the world around you. Yeah, I think that’s true.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And then I always made sure I was in the right
Toby Dorr: Oh, that’s so important. That’s really important. Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: So, um, and acceptance and. Uh, was just a big part of that community. Not only just, uh, acceptance of, you know, being different, but acceptances of, you know, a lot of different things. Um, so yeah, I never, I I’m so glad that I have William and it’s every time I look at him, I’m like, I can’t believe you’re going to be 34, he’ll be 34 next year in March and, and it’s been 34 years and it seemed like it just flew by. So yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m blessed.
Toby Dorr: I think that’s beautiful. I think you are too. Um, so who has been your most important mentor?
Karen Mitchell Grant: Oh my God. Living, uh, the one that has passed away is my mom. She was awesome. I watched her be a strong black woman and that’s, um, and I watched her be around all ethnicities and never Uh, just always felt like there was nothing about not being equal, that, that, that kind of thinking. I didn’t grow up with that kind of thinking.
Karen Mitchell Grant: So when I hear that kind of thinking, I’m like,
Toby Dorr: so your mom, yeah, your mom has an amazing story. She, uh, was a professional back in a time in a generation where there weren’t that many professional women. I mean, there just weren’t my grandmother. I went to college and that was just like not the norm. And, and your mother was a black woman at the same time.
Toby Dorr: So, um, tell me a little bit about what she gave back to your community, because I know she has a school named after her or something, doesn’t she?
Karen Mitchell Grant: Yeah. She, um, she was in the 1950s and she, uh, first. Worked her way to the point of becoming superintendent of schools in Canton, Ohio. She was the second black woman in the state. And so her, her surroundings were so diversified. So I grew up with diversity. It was a norm for me. What she did with the community was she was so involved in the kids lives.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Um, like she, they would come and tell her things that they could not tell, um, their, their moms or their teachers or whatever. And I remember many times her, one of the things she would do is have a coat drive because
Toby Dorr: Mm-Hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: have coats. And first time that happened was when I saw her come home without a coat.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Where’s your coat mom, which wasn’t normal for me to ask, but it was cold out, but there was another child that. Had made it to school without a coat. And so that became a project of hers that she made sure everyone had a coat. And she made sure that even as she moved up in the ranks that she remained approachable. So, um, I had many kids who envied me. They said, Dr. J is your mom. And I said, yeah. And she’s, Oh man, you’re so lucky. Dr. J is your mom. And I just remember always saying, well, you may think I’m lucky, but when Dr. J comes home, Dr. J is mom. You think I get away with things, but I don’t get away with things. She makes sure that
Toby Dorr: Yes, yes. Yeah, my mom was a huge mentor in my life too. And, you know, I wish I had paid attention to that earlier in life. My dad was also a very central figure in my life and I think that he kind of overshadowed my mom. And it wasn’t until I went to prison that I. realized the strength of character that my mom really had.
Toby Dorr: And I felt sorry that I had not focused on that for all the years I’d had with her before that, but I just didn’t. And, uh, but she certainly was my mentor. Moms are awesome.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And, you know, Toby, I think it also
Toby Dorr: Yes. Yes. So, mm hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: I had to go through the same thing with my daughter, um, who kept looking at me as someone that she would put on a pedestal and I said, no, I want you to get to know me. I want you to who I am and that I, I also have worked through things and, um, and, So I don’t want you to walk around here and go, mom, mom, this is just perfect because that’s not presenting you with a, um,
Toby Dorr: Pedestals are not a good
Karen Mitchell Grant: well, person. And, and the way I used to look at my mom was if she had told me something, which share Sarah, Sarah shared the same thing with me, even if she had told me, Karen, I’m working through things I would have still this fun. Not you, mom, not you. You’re not anything, you know? Yeah, I am. I’m uh, you know, I, I have things that I’m working through and I’m proud of those things and I’m proud when I come on the other side.
Karen Mitchell Grant: But I wanted her to see me for for who I was as a person. Always respect me as her mom. But as a person who, you know, is walking this journey. with Christ, but still is walking.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. I think that makes sense. I think that’s really important. So, what does Sarah do? And how old is Sarah? She’s an adult now too, correct?
Karen Mitchell Grant: Uh, in a few days, she’ll be 28. Um, 28 and she is studying for, um, she wants to be a
Toby Dorr: Oh, wow.
Karen Mitchell Grant: um, with
Toby Dorr: Oh yeah. Mm-Hmm?
Karen Mitchell Grant: She’s, she’s always been a dog lover, so she wants to be part of the military army specifically. So she has been training, um, so, which was another reason why she wanted to do the 5k, because it gave her another opportunity to, to run and walk.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And, uh, um, so she’s training and, and getting her, um, studying for the ASVAT, studying for, um, to, to, uh, become physically fit. Um, ’cause we watched a, um, a, a YouTube video where a woman was carrying a, a man on, on her back. And I said, Sarah, I think you’re gonna have to do that. And she goes, I gotta go up some hills more.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: That’s
Toby Dorr: My husband wa is a veteran and, and his son is also, and I love hearing them talk about, you know, the things being in the military. I think it’s such a camaraderie and such a community of people that. you know, the rest of us can’t relate to if we haven’t been there. And I think it’s a really great way to get into a life.
Toby Dorr: So I think that’s exciting. Yeah. I love that. So tell us about how a turning point in your life propelled you in a new direction. If we haven’t already covered.
Karen Mitchell Grant: well, I think, I think, um, one of the things that was significant in my life was I, I experienced, uh, which I experienced. And at the same time, it was a gift. It didn’t seem that way at first, but, um, I was, I was under a management. I’m a, I’m a retired registered nurse. And so I have a 40 year history of being in the nursing field.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And so I had a manager one time who, um, I didn’t, I couldn’t understand it. Um, she didn’t care for me and I, and I could not relate to why she didn’t care for me because. I was under the impression that everyone loved me. And I made no bones about it. It was like, uh, you get in my presence, you get
Toby Dorr: Uh huh,
Karen Mitchell Grant: to love me because I’m
Toby Dorr: uh huh,
Karen Mitchell Grant: So when this woman didn’t care for me and I couldn’t understand it, um, and I was always someone that was in a book, I was always in a book. So it didn’t matter to me whether it was a certification I was going to get or where, whether it was, um, uh, another degree or whatnot, I loved reading.
Karen Mitchell Grant: I just loved it. And so even when I had my downtime at work, you would find me in a book.
Toby Dorr: uh huh,
Karen Mitchell Grant: And
Toby Dorr: huh,
Karen Mitchell Grant: think there was some of that because I’ve often tried to recall, like, what was the, what was the thing that made it so, you know,
Toby Dorr: huh.
Karen Mitchell Grant: that she just decided that this was what her life was going to be like when it came to interacting with me.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And, um, she said, So one day she said, she said, Karen, you can’t tell people what you think. And I said, excuse me. She said, well, when someone asks you a question, you, you can’t, you can’t tell them what you think. And I said, well, if I’m acting in a certain role, shouldn’t I tell them what I think? Especially since I’m in a supervisory position to them and they’re asking me their opinion and this is, is healthcare and whatnot.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And I, I think my level of confidence, and this is really like coming to me now, like I think my level of confidence and, uh, was threatening for her. And, um, so there was a lot of, uh, A lot of, uh, let’s, let’s just say, I’m trying to summarize it conflict there that I’ve written up for things that made no sense.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And I remember going home one day and saying, you know, I don’t understand this Lord. I just don’t understand this. I don’t understand what’s going on. It makes no sense to me. And then I had this scripture that came to me that says that all things work together for those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. My anchor and as she would bring these little petty things, I would get in my car and I would just scream that scripture out. Like I know this is working my good. I know it is. I know it is. I know it is. I know it is. Finally, one, one day it broke. It was like the levy broke and All of a sudden, she came back to what I call her senses, and she said, Oh, I’m so glad you’re here.
Karen Mitchell Grant: I wanted to turn around and go, Excuse me? Is there another Karen out
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: But I had the, I had that anchor that I held onto cause I was like, this is, this too will end. But I, anytime I kept respecting her and, and uh, so she could never, you know, say that, that I disrespected
Toby Dorr: Uh huh,
Karen Mitchell Grant: continue to respect her. I continue to support her because she was the manager and I continued giving her ideas about how we could become greater.
Karen Mitchell Grant: As, as
Toby Dorr: uh
Karen Mitchell Grant: Hartman and, uh, it was rough, but it was, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t change it.
Toby Dorr: you probably made a difference in her life too, so you changed some of her preconceived conceptions about something and I. Bet it had an impact on her for the rest of her life. You know, and I was thinking too, going back to the marathon with William and you said, you said something that stuck out to me and it was that these people were all being timed and so many of them took minutes off their time to help you push William up the hills.
Toby Dorr: And. I think that is so powerful because you look at that as a blessing for you, but I think we don’t stop and look at what a blessing it is for those that we allow the opportunity to give to us because Giving to someone is so enriching and there’s so many times that people won’t let you, you know, Oh, no, no, we’ve got it.
Toby Dorr: I can do this. But when you stop and you let someone help you, you’ve given them a gift as well as received a gift of their help.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Yeah. And, and, and, and I think that’s because society try, uh, really tells you that, you know, I am woman, hear me roar. And I, you know, I don’t, I don’t need anything, but yes you do. Um, and so allow people to pour into you and, and give, give you what they have because you, like you said, it works both ways.
Toby Dorr: it certainly does. It’s a gift to receive from others just as much as it is to give to others. And a lot of times we don’t accept the help and we, and, and it’s for that person’s good sometimes that we let them help us. So I think we need to kind of change the way we think about that.
Karen Mitchell Grant: we, we really do. I think people, they go, it’s better to give, but you know,
Toby Dorr: Yes, you do. Yes. And if we all, if nobody is open to receiving, then there, there is no giving happening and that’s not a good place to be.
Karen Mitchell Grant: You got to have that exchange. You
Toby Dorr: I agree. So what’s 1 question you wish I’d asked?
Karen Mitchell Grant: well, you started to ask it. And so I’m going to have you ask it again. You said, you asked about the mentor and, and, and I said, well, um, passed away. I told you about my mom, but living, I have someone who I just, And I’m so grateful to that, that I want to share her with the world. Um, and, and it’s so funny because I met all of you guys around the same time.
Karen Mitchell Grant: It was a time when, um, you know, I had just finished, finished, uh, health coaching, I had gotten my health coach, uh, degree and, uh, became a life coach. And I started watching this one particular coach. And, um, one of the things I, I did, uh, when I first came on Facebook was, um, I interviewed a lot of people and so she was one of the people I interviewed and, and her name is coach Jackie, uh, Jacqueline Barnes to be exact.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And, um, I kept wondering why I, why she just struck me so much and what was about her. It was, um. You know, of course it was how she carried herself, but you know, I never met her other than just how I’m meeting you, which is on camera. And so, but even on camera, she came across different. And so finally one day she was saying how she was, that she had a group and it’s called leading in life.
Karen Mitchell Grant: So I went ahead and I joined that group. And it’s a community of women who are, uh, They’re in different, uh, areas of life. And Monday through Friday, um, she, so she encourages every everyone in that group. And then Monday through Friday morning, she has this group that’s called the exchange crew. And it was a Bible study group and it was a Bible devotion group.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And I had been brought up in the rigid religious And here was someone that I could relate to that was teaching about the Lord in such a beautiful and inviting way. I ended up joining that exchange crew, been there with them for a couple years. And these women, um, love the Lord. And I’ve been able to, you know, just come, just come and be, be who I am and grow.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And That has been a beautiful experience and I credit it to because I watched her and I watched how she walked and I watched how inviting she was for you to come and learn. And so,
Toby Dorr: That’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. And that ties again back to community and how we, you were saying at the beginning that community is so important and community help get through the things you have to get through and that lifts you up on your way. So I think that’s really powerful.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Yeah,
Toby Dorr: So is there a question that you’d like to ask me?
Karen Mitchell Grant: not really. I, I, I, I’m glad that you invited me. And, um, and, and like you’ve watched me, I’ve watched you. So you’re very transparent. Um, and I, I believe that what I need to know, I know you share and
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I don’t have any
Karen Mitchell Grant: yeah. And so there’s, um,
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: and I, I’m one of your biggest, um, cheerleaders as far as when I see my, I remember the first time you, you did a photo shoot and I was right there, like, Yeah. I want to see you do well and I want to see this community help people. And I believe that’s what you’re all about. So I am right there with you.
Toby Dorr: I really appreciate that. What’s one word that inspires you?
Karen Mitchell Grant: I gave that word to my daughter today and. No, just say it, Sarah. Love.
Toby Dorr: love is so important, isn’t it? Yeah. I was watching a YouTube video Yesterday and it was, there was some, you know, horrible school shooting or something somewhere. And the mother of one of the children was speaking in court and saying to the person who was being convicted, I will never forgive you. I choose not to forgive you.
Toby Dorr: I hope you have a horrible life. And I thought, Oh, you poor thing. You’re missing the whole point of forgiveness. It’s not about the person who wronged you. Forgiveness is for you because. You have to be able to let go and love yourself, and love through the pain, and you can’t do that with an attitude of unforgiveness.
Karen Mitchell Grant: But you know, you know what, Toby? I’m glad, now I’m glad this question came up. Because, um, the one thing I realize that people don’t know and is often not talked about is the benefit of forgiveness. Because, um, as a nurse, I tell you what, I saw so many people who would carry, uh, misery around with them and they were sick.
Karen Mitchell Grant: They were physically sick. And I was one of those nurses who, I don’t know, people just wanted to tell me things. And so when they started telling me things, one of the things they would end up talking about is, um, someone that was in their life that they were mad at. I said, when did this happen? And it doesn’t matter when it happened.
Karen Mitchell Grant: It’s like if it happened five minutes ago, or if it
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: years ago and there’s still
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: around this anger and anger. My thing is, man, when you let that go, the floodwaters
Toby Dorr: Oh, yes. That is so true. Mm-Hmm. . That is so true.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Cause I have, I have, I have another story if you
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Karen Mitchell Grant: have time.
Toby Dorr: Mm-Hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: So I had someone in my life that I cared about very, very much.
Karen Mitchell Grant: Um, It was a 20 plus year, um, friendship. And I cared about this individual so much and had, had helped him. And my husband and I both had helped him many, many times. So, um, when I started, when I started, uh, walking with the Lord, you know, I, there were certain things that I just didn’t adhere to. So something he asked me and I, I came out and I told him exactly what I thought and he got mad and I mean, not just mad, but mad. And he, he was like, well, I don’t see why you won’t do that. And I said, because I can’t agree with that. I just can’t agree with it. And so in order to get back at me, cause, cause he knew how much me and my husband loved him and, He said, well, how does it feel to love somebody who does not love you back? And I thought, Whoa. So initially after I got off the phone with him, initially I was tore up that wrecked me. And I started doing what so many people do was recall. I did this for you. I did that for you, blah, blah, blah. And all that. And then I finally said, but you know what, in order for me to live and thrive and survive and not end up like so many of my patients that I saw that didn’t forgive and they were sick. I said, I cried out to the Lord, I said, Lord, help me to
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: help me. I need your, this is a big one. And so I think it took me, um, a steady. Consistent, concentrated, um,
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: and understand. And this is what I always tell Sarah. I said, Sarah, if someone says something hurting to you, realize that you don’t know
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: You don’t
Toby Dorr: That’s so true.
Karen Mitchell Grant: There’s something that happened in their lives that has made them the way they are. And it’s up to you to have compassion and have that grace for them. And so, I started saying, I don’t know what happened to him. I don’t know what happened to him, but I’ve, and finally, all of a sudden I could feel myself release it.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And I
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: And like I said, it took me some months to get there, but I was determined to get there. About seven years later, he comes and he knocks on my door and he says, Karen, and by this time, you know, my husband, you know, he can’t talk to my husband cause my husband’s gone. But, um, he says, Karen, I’m so sorry. And I said, I said, bro, I forgave you long time ago. And
Toby Dorr: a gift to be able to forgive and let go of something. Even the most deep wounds, the deep hurts, you still have to let go of them. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: why I was interested in trauma was because Um, you know, someone describes it as a big T and a small T. But that experience that I have with that with him was it was
Toby Dorr: hmm.
Karen Mitchell Grant: for me and I wanted to know how did others, um, when I, you know, of course they were two different times, but I really wanted to understand.
Karen Mitchell Grant: What do people do? And if they don’t learn, if they don’t learn, or if they don’t have people around them that will not feed into that because you get something. Yeah, they were wrong.
Toby Dorr: shouldn’t be talking to them. You were right to cut them out of your life. Yeah.
Karen Mitchell Grant: But you need to be in the right community that’s going to say you can, you, you can get over this. And I’m going to hold your hand while you get over it. I’m not going to feed the hate or the angry or the frustration that you have, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna hold your hand in love. And I think that’s why love has been, is, is my word.
Karen Mitchell Grant: All right.
Toby Dorr: Well, thank you so much, Karen, for being on with us today. I just love talking to you, and I think the rest of the world’s going to love your story, too. Okay.
Karen Mitchell Grant: a great day.
Toby Dorr: Bye.
Karen Mitchell Grant: bye.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for joining me on Fierce Conversations with Toby. Your support and listening means so much to me, and I hope today’s conversation makes a difference in your world. If you would like to support this podcast, there are many ways to do so. I found these ways tend to help the most in getting our message out into the world.
Toby Dorr: Number one, subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen to, or watch this podcast. If you can leave a five star rating or a like on this episode on YouTube, that helps even more. And if you leave a comment or a review, that helps the most. The next way you can support Fierce Conversations with Toby is to join our Patreon at patreon.com slash fierce conversations. All tiers come with a downloadable digital gratitude journal created by me and membership in a private Facebook group that I also lead. Most importantly, 10 percent of all proceeds from your subscription will go directly to donating my workbooks to women in prison.
Toby Dorr: Finally, sharing the link to this show with your friends, family, and anyone who wants to listen is appreciated more than I can say. Thank you again for joining me today and supporting this show by listening to it and sharing it with friends. Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Dorr, produced by Number 3 Productions.
Toby Dorr: The theme song that you’re hearing now, Groovin was composed and arranged by Lisa Plasse. Lisa also plays the flute for the theme with Carolyn Parody on piano and Tony Ventura on bass. Find out more at tobydorr. com. This is Fierce Conversations with Toby. Escape your prison.
