Toby Dorr: Hi, everyone, and welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby, the show where we discover the silver lining in life’s most difficult stories. I’m your host, Toby Dorr.
Toby Dorr: I’m so excited for my guest today, which all of you are going to be surprised at, I think. But anyway, my guest today is my husband. Christian door, and I just kind of want to give you his perspective both on my story and also let him share his unique story with you guys too. So, thanks so much for being here has been or can
Christian Dorr: Should I sing to you?
Toby Dorr: I you sing to me.
Christian Dorr: Yeah. To get things started.
Toby Dorr: If you want to
Christian Dorr: Oh, Tobidore. How lovely are your branches.
Toby Dorr: Oh, you’re a goof. You’re such a goof. So when I got out of prison, I had no intentions of ever getting married again. I was done with men, done with all the whole mess. I was just going to live my own little quiet life and. Then in walks Christian door. And that certainly wasn’t in the cards for me to live a quiet little life because Chris is my biggest fan.
Toby Dorr: I mean, we riding on a train once. And he said to some guy, Oh, you brought cards. We should have brought our cards, Toby. We could have played cards. And the guy said, what? game do you like to play? And tell him what you said, Chris.
Christian Dorr: I said, uh, we, we like to play a game called spite and malice, uh, which is a game that my wife learned in prison and, uh, he started laughing and it, uh, it turned into sort of an awkward moment, but he didn’t realize, uh, that that passenger on the train didn’t realize that I was. Not being funny, necessarily, being a bit sarcastic, but not, uh, I wasn’t being untruthful.
Christian Dorr: Let’s put it that way.
Toby Dorr: No. And he looked at you and he said, you are going to get in so much trouble for that when you get home, buddy. And I, if only he knew. Anyway, I went to Boston right after I got out of prison. I took a job in Boston because I thought I was going to go somewhere where nobody knows my name. And I walked into this office where I was going to work and I ended up sharing a desk with Chris.
Toby Dorr: We had our desks facing each other. And, um, so why don’t you tell them the story of how we met Chris?
Christian Dorr: Well, I’d already been working there for several years with, uh, a lifetime friend of mine where he and I grew up together in down East Maine, and then we wound up working together in Boston, and I had no idea that, uh, Toby was inbound. I didn’t realize that she was going to be working with, uh, with this friend of mine.
Christian Dorr: And when she appeared, I didn’t realize that we had a new employee that I was going to have to deal with. Uh, but she, uh, was there and I, I was kind of caught off guard because, uh, well, actually the story of Oscar was one of my other co workers who was a laborer on a job site. And he was picked up for I don’t know, speeding or drinking and driving or something, but, uh, but they took him to jail, and this was up in Maine, uh, not far away, maybe two hours drive, and I wrote him a letter, and While he was in jail, I wrote him a letter and was asking whether I could come and visit him and I started putting the letter together and Toby said, uh, well, if you’re going to send him a letter, then you need to know his inmate number.
Christian Dorr: And I thought, what an unusual thing. thing for somebody to know what kind of trivial information would somebody know about sending a letter to an inmate somewhere and knowing that, uh, knowing that I needed to have Oscar’s inmate number or the letter wouldn’t reach him. So, uh, That was a curious moment for me, and I wound up doing a bit of Google searching.
Christian Dorr: This was back in 2008. Google wasn’t very old at the time. Anyway. And, uh, and I found dozens of pages of information about Toby. Toby, uh, so,
Toby Dorr: You came into the office the next day and you said, we need to talk and you weren’t at all phased by my story. In fact, you were kind of enamored by the story. Yeah. Intrigued by the story. Yeah. Yeah.
Christian Dorr: the kind of person to Well, let’s put it this way. I’ve been through enough crap in my own life that I’m not the kind of person to pass judgment on other people and situations, circumstances that they’ve experienced, and even when they’re pretty negative. So, going through prison, uh, your visit to prison for a couple of years didn’t faze me much. I sort of judge people on the
Toby Dorr: Go ahead. Go ahead.
Christian Dorr: I judge people by the, the cover of their book rather than what’s in the content, um, so, uh, you didn’t scare me off, you were, you were fairly simple and straightforward and had a smile on your face and intelligent and easy to talk to and I didn’t really think that any of that history that you brought with you was significant.
Christian Dorr: Not really. Uh, but since then I’ve learned that it has a lot to do with you.
Toby Dorr: Yes, it does, doesn’t it?
Christian Dorr: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the personalities are, we, we tend to, as human beings, we tend to, we change a little bit as our circumstances allow our personalities to develop and, and you certainly are one of those people, so. Mm
Toby Dorr: Even I mean, just in that short amount of times, things have happened in our lives that have made an impact in some way. And and I think each day we are more than we were the day before.
Christian Dorr: Um, yeah, but February 12th made quite an impact
Toby Dorr: Yes, yes. That was a significant day.
Christian Dorr: your next day and next two years and the next 20 years, they were impacted by that day pretty
Toby Dorr: They certainly were. So, why don’t you give us a little bit of background about your story, Chris, because I think you have a pretty amazing story, too.
Christian Dorr: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: And maybe that’s why we make such a good team, because we both have somewhat unbelievable stories. Mm hmm.
Christian Dorr: yeah, my, my story, I’m, I’m all over the map. I, there’s nothing very grounded. It seems like every part of my story has always been with one foot out the door, whatever the next door was, my future was always, you know, a confusing, um, area to expect where I’d go. I, there’s no way to predict where my next step was going to land, uh, even though there were some times in my life where it seemed like it was, it was grounded, but, uh, most of the time it wasn’t.
Christian Dorr: So, uh, I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts. I was, I lived in Massachusetts until I was eight or nine years old and I moved to Maine. Uh, my mom and my. biological father had divorced and my mom remarried, uh, to a guy named Gary Dorr, and I found myself at nine years old, waking up one morning, far from the concrete jungle of Boston, Massachusetts, and all the crime and the sirens and the busy life and everything else, and found myself on a blueberry farm with nothing but thousands of acres of blueberries all around me and as far as the eye could see, and it was, uh, it was, it was wonderful.
Christian Dorr: Uh, and eight years later, um, I graduated high school and I joined the Navy and, uh, the Navy pulled me to San Diego and to Japan and Singapore and Hong Kong and Korea and, uh, Australia and Diego Garcia and the list goes on and on and on and on of all the places that I visited while I was in the Navy and
Toby Dorr: And the Persian Gulf.
Christian Dorr: in the Persian Gulf and Desert Storm and aircraft carriers and bombs and killing and lots of Lots of, uh, interesting military experiences.
Christian Dorr: And I was an electronics tech the whole time, just, uh, repairing radios. And then, uh, in the middle of all that, I also managed to meet a young lady that, uh, that I fell in love with and got married to, and it was, uh, another extraordinary. Experience, uh, had a son with her and she already had a daughter from a previous marriage.
Christian Dorr: And, uh, we were together for 8 or 9 years or something like that. And, um, and today, both Toby and I are now living with that same son that I had back in 87.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Christian Dorr: Yeah, just for a second.
Toby Dorr: So Kevin, Kevin and his wife, they, Kevin took a job in Washington, D. C. We were living in Kansas City at the time. And he came to, yes. And he came to our house and said, I think I just found my dream job on LinkedIn. He said, the only downside is it’s in Washington, D. C. And I looked at him and I said, well, if you’re going to go to Washington DC, buy a big house because we’re coming with you because you know, the grandkids are such an intimate part of our lives.
Toby Dorr: And I wasn’t going to give that up. And he said, Do you really mean it? Would you really come? And I said, Well, yeah. And he said, Okay, then I’m gonna do it. And so in just a few weeks time, we packed up two houses and headed for Washington, D. C. for a house we’d never seen that they bought through the Internet.
Toby Dorr: And what a whirlwind that was. But it’s worked out really well. We lived down in
Christian Dorr: been here for 3 years.
Toby Dorr: three years, three and a half years now. Yeah. And I just love it.
Christian Dorr: it’s worked out pretty well. Now, I’m in our bedroom here, but, uh, Toby’s in our kitchen over there, so we’re in the same apartment, but in different rooms. Uh,
Toby Dorr: yes. Uh
Christian Dorr: the, there were a couple of heavy segments of my life and history that are not connected here.
Christian Dorr: So let’s connect the two. So, uh, from, from the Navy, I got out at, just after Desert Storm in 1991. Uh, I worked in construction. I also worked in the electronics field and in both of those areas, I probably put On and off over the course of 20 years, probably 20 years in each of those and then, uh. Meanwhile, I got very depressed and had a lot of problems after the Navy felt lost.
Christian Dorr: Uh, my wife and I split up and my family was split in every different direction that you could go, including my son, whom we live with today, but, uh, but we managed to stay in touch, my son and I did, uh, for A lot of his years as he was growing up, and then he joined the Navy and did pretty well in the Navy, and then wound up getting a high tech job and doing very well in his career.
Christian Dorr: Uh, meanwhile, I took some nosedives along the way, got really mixed up in drugs and alcohol for several years, and it really destroyed a lot. Of my character and my will to live and it just was very, very difficult. It took me a long time, maybe 20 years of recovering from just a couple of years of severe drug abuse, very severe.
Christian Dorr: Uh, I even had a, what do they call it? A, not a, a, a psychological
Toby Dorr: Oh, evaluation. You got committed. Yeah, you got committed.
Christian Dorr: Yeah, and they, uh, they basically came to the conclusion that, uh, that my drug abuse was so bad that, uh, it was really kind of a stunning surprise that I would live through it. And they showed me graphs of other people that had experienced the same type of drug abuse that I had, and the people that, uh, We’re down in this narrow red band at the bottom of this graph, which is where I was sitting were people that were digging through dumpsters and were dead within six months because
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Christian Dorr: never come out of it and, uh, with me, on the other hand, uh, God stepped in at a point where I was So desperate, uh, 38 cents in my pocket, um, about ready to die and didn’t care if I did.
Christian Dorr: And, and he changed everything. And I mean, the story is one that it would take another few episodes of our podcast to explain, but, uh, but ultimately the story was that God healed me nearly overnight, that I had a job within a couple of days. I, uh, gainfully employed and
Toby Dorr: met.
Christian Dorr: And I worked for the next 10 to 15 years just to try to get my sanity back and try to understand what happened in those couple of years that I was down.
Christian Dorr: And, and I, I’m still recovering from it today in a lot of ways, but at the same time, God had other plans for me, including meeting Toby in Boston, some, some, uh, maybe what, 10, 12 years later, after I, after the end of my drug case, Yep. Yep. So, so, uh, so it’s been quite a journey and glad to be here. Glad to be alive.
Christian Dorr: Glad that, uh, Toby saved me as much as I saved her. So we saved each other at times when we were both pretty desperate. So, uh,
Toby Dorr: I mean, I always say, you know, I was on this emotional rollercoaster. I’d be, ah, so happy and you know, and, and I always say Chris was my keel because he kept me kind of going straight and not tipping over, but I became his anchor because You know, he said he just wondered and went through whatever doors open.
Toby Dorr: He really didn’t have a home. He didn’t have a home base. And so I became his anchor and kind of gave him a security and home,
Christian Dorr: The old ball and chain.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, the ball and shade. Hardly. Yeah. So when
Christian Dorr: uh, so, yeah, now we’ve been
Toby Dorr: my stories.
Christian Dorr: 15 years?
Toby Dorr: Yeah. 15
Christian Dorr: better at counting these things than I am.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. 15 years. But my story. Didn’t phase Chris because he had a story just as big as just as, um, destructive and just as powerful recoverings from.
Toby Dorr: So I think that kind of
Christian Dorr: and if God, If God can fix me and he can fix you, which first off, if God can fix me, then he can fix anybody. And, and so I wasn’t concerned about him being able to fix you. And, and, uh, since then, we’ve learned that, uh, God can fix anybody, no matter how bad they are.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. At the time I met Chris, it was, um, during the time that my son Greg was going through chemo and he would eventually die from his, uh, lymphoma within just, Less than a year that I met Chris and Chris kind of really helped me through that because you know I was his mother and I wanted to like storm in and and fix everything and change and you know Chris said Toby this is his battle.
Toby Dorr: This is his life you can support him, but you can’t take charge of it and You know, that was a big help I think for
Christian Dorr: But it, it’s critical to understand that, uh, that Greg was 23, 24 years old.
Toby Dorr: 2024.
Christian Dorr: He, he wasn’t a child.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Christian Dorr: didn’t need a mommy.
Toby Dorr: Right.
Christian Dorr: He needed space and he needed power and control over his own life. And, uh, he For anybody to inject themselves into that and try to fix what was wrong, which was his cancer, he didn’t, he didn’t need nor want that.
Christian Dorr: And I don’t blame him and I, I feel just as strongly that, uh, that, uh, As, as a man, as a young man or an old man, you have to feel like you have some say so over what’s going on and that this isn’t for everybody else to solve. This is my problem and I’ve got to solve it. And it doesn’t mean you have to be on your own.
Christian Dorr: It just means that. Sometimes it’s better to just give that person space and mommy, uh, the same mommy that raised Greg all those years was not going to benefit Greg in the situation that he was in. So it was good to give him the space and, and not just space, respect. Respect is really what it was about.
Christian Dorr: He had to respect that what he wanted was space. And so you did that. And I’ll tell you that’s incredibly strong of you. As a mom, to be able to give Greg that kind of space, to be able to restrict yourself when it was tearing you right in half, I could see how much you struggled with it, and it was just a, it was a powerful exhibition of a mother’s love.
Christian Dorr: To be able to separate yourself from that while he was going through it and then not be able to be there until he was literally in a coma on his deathbed was the first time that anybody allowed you to get anywhere close to him, including himself. And and so it was when he left us, it was a, it was quite a moment.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, yeah, it was. And you know, I will always believe he waited for me to get there before he left. And I told him. It’s okay. You know, you fought so hard and it’s okay to let go and just leave. You know, you’ve done your job. And he died. And I, I think he was waiting to hear that from me.
Christian Dorr: Mm hmm.
Toby Dorr: I don’t think anybody will ever convince me differently.
Christian Dorr: You know, death is, death is a painful thing for us as human beings to deal with and letting loved ones go, but it’s also, it’s a fact of life,
Toby Dorr: It is.
Christian Dorr: we have to live through it, we have to heal and understand that
Toby Dorr: Uh
Christian Dorr: doesn’t mean the end for us. It means, if anything, it just means that we should relish every minute that we have here even more profoundly.
Christian Dorr: Okay.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh. And, you know, I think of death as all of ours, destiny. I mean, you can’t avoid it. It’s the one thing, besides being born, that’s going to happen to every single person on this planet. Every other experience we have, they’re going to be a little different from person to person, but sometimes it seems like people spend so much time fighting.
Toby Dorr: death and avoiding talking about it and doing whatever they can to just get another month, another day. And I think you kind of lose the point because I don’t think life is measured in how long it is. I think it’s more measured in what you’ve done with it and what you’ve left behind. You know, I went in, um, Barnes and Noble not too long ago, and it had a bestselling books and three of them were about living longer.
Toby Dorr: Um, I don’t understand the fascination with wanting to live longer. I want to live better. I want to be better. I want to give something to the world that is here when I’m gone. I don’t want my death to just be the end of anything I’ve given. I want it to create some kind of ripple effect that goes on after I’m gone.
Toby Dorr: And You know, Chris, you and I were together when my mom passed away. And I think my mom’s death was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. You know, she was ready to go. She was a happy camper. She was like, okay, I, this is it. I’m ready to go. I’ll give you 10 days, but no more. Cause I’m ready. And you know, my mom’s death, I think was just the most beautiful experience I’ve ever had.
Toby Dorr: to share those 10 days with her and be by her side for those whole 10 days. And, and, you know, I, I just think that there’s a beautiful side to death. And when we make it into something so terrible, it makes it so much more difficult to live through the loss. So.
Christian Dorr: Well, people that get older, I’ve, I don’t remember where I read it somewhere about an old man, uh, doesn’t have, he fears no one. And it sort of lives his life day to day, uh, with, with his heart on his sleeve, he just, he just is more genuine and will say whatever is on his mind, because there’s nothing to lose, because when you get to be old, when you get really old, you get to a point where you start realizing that every, every Every minute of every day is just, uh, it’s a, it’s all borrowed time. Uh, it’s funny because little kids are that way. They don’t realize they just, they don’t, uh, they don’t have any fear. So they just say it like it is, you know, they, they see a woman with a ward on her nose and she’s like, mommy, look at that, that woman has a not a big Brown, not on her nose. And it’s like, you know, If all of us could just be that honest and open all the time, that candid, uh, that, that’s brilliant.
Christian Dorr: And I think that’s where old people go, and the reality is that the older you get, the more time squeezes us down and gets us more and more appreciative of just how precious every little second is. So,
Toby Dorr: you know, we’re both getting older. Yeah, she was. And, you know, the things that I really appreciate are the grandkids coming down and playing games with us or looking out the window and seeing a rabbit, you know, right outside the door. I don’t get joy from looking at our bank account and checking the balance.
Toby Dorr: That
Christian Dorr: I don’t either.
Toby Dorr: That’s pretty good. So recently we have been on a whirlwind life together. You and I, we’ve been together for 15 years. But doesn’t it seem like a lifetime?
Christian Dorr: Well, it has been a lifetime. Uh, and I mean, I can say that sarcastically and go into being funny about all that. But, but the reality is that, uh, is that we, we came together. And in my, in my mind, I, I don’t feel like you and I came together because we were just. gravity toward each other and we just were so Wrapped up and wow, she’s amazing.
Christian Dorr: Wow. He’s so gorgeous and you know There wasn’t any of that kind of stuff going on. It was a whole lot more to do with uh, the The the pain of life. It kicked us both in the face so hard and God was Helping us through some pretty tough times and realize that each of us needed somebody that could understand what kind of pain the other one was experiencing and. It was probably the, the best, maybe the only way that, uh, that I was going to connect with another person like I have with you. Is that, uh, that God, God put you in my path with all of the experiences that you had, uh, knowing that I was the kind of person that wouldn’t hold it against you and that you were the kind of person that would understand that I’m a, I’m a drug abusing loser.
Christian Dorr: You know, so you, you, uh, you, you fixed me in so many ways, and I hope that I brought some benefit to the
Toby Dorr: Oh, you did. I mean, when we were when I was writing my memoir, Chris and I, when I thought it was finished, Chris and I sat in the media room here and had Microsoft Word read the whole memoir out loud to us. And then we kept stopping it going. Wait, didn’t you just say fortunate a couple sentences ago? We need to go change fortunate.
Toby Dorr: You know, I mean, we went through that with a fine tooth comb, Chris, you and I together. And I think, I mean, I can count the number of hours that we spent together talking about what I was going to put in the book and, and editing what I had put in the book and
Christian Dorr: Those, those things that you just mentioned, those are all true. Uh, and maybe there’s a lot of, uh, depth of character that sort of gets revealed in those little technical things that you just mentioned. described, but what I enjoyed about writing the book with you is spending hours of extracting deeper thoughts and understandings and character out of you.
Christian Dorr: So to ask you questions and try to get you to, because you’re not a, you don’t delve into yourself much. It’s almost like most of the time you are too busy working. You’re such a hard worker and you’re so busy working and I, I don’t know if it’s because you work that you don’t talk or if it’s you don’t talk because you work.
Christian Dorr: I don’t know which came first, the chicken or the egg, but, uh, but the reality is that, uh, you don’t, You don’t really share a lot of the in depth psychology, this, well, psychosis behind how you were behaving and all that. And I think that’s, for me, that was a big part of You and I researching how to write this book and how to get your memoir put together so that we could express to other people just what it feels like to fall in love with a convicted murderer in prison and help him escape from prison.
Christian Dorr: And you know, what kind of madness that is, because it really is a sort of a madness, but that’s what, that’s what, um, infatuation does to people. It’s, uh, it’s, it’s like. It’s a drug induced coma that you went through. You just, your brain shut off, and your heart was on fire, and, and when your heart’s on, when anybody’s heart is on fire, you can’t stop yourself,
Toby Dorr: Your brain just doesn’t work when your heart is.
Christian Dorr: There’s no logic that can
Toby Dorr: No, there isn’t.
Christian Dorr: from doing some pretty stupid things when you’re in love with someone. You know, when
Toby Dorr: And I know, you know, when I first wrote the book, ’cause I worked on it for 15 years, you know, worked on it and worked on it and worked on it and tried to figure out where does it start, where does it end? And those very first.
Toby Dorr: versions. When you go back and look at him, I always say it was like reading somebody’s chart in a hospital, coming in and picking up a patient’s chart. The patient woke up today. The blood pressure was this. I mean, that’s how wooden and factual everything that I first wrote was because I didn’t allow myself to feel it because It was too painful and it was too hard and you gave me that safe space to pull out those feelings and we dissected them and we were like, well, Toby, why wouldn’t you feel that way?
Toby Dorr: This is what happened. Of course, that’s how you’re going to feel. And so I think you gave me permission to be me.
Christian Dorr: I, I think so. And not just permission, but even a push, you know, they, they, I think you needed a push to, to be you.
Toby Dorr: I think so too.
Christian Dorr: And, uh, and I, I’ve always thought that it was important for one of my biggest roles was accepting you for who you are, just the way you are. And, uh, that’s, that, I gotta tell you, Tobin, that’s not easy.
Toby Dorr: When I bring home a new set of dishes, or a new ceramic bunning, or something. Yeah. 27.
Christian Dorr: how much you’ve already shared with other, uh, episodes about your story, but, uh, I think a huge element, uh, a massive part. It just. Is this big weight in the middle of your whole psyche and your personality has a whole lot to do with your dad and how he raised you and the burn that he experienced when he was twenty seven? Yep. So, and your experience with that when you were just five and, uh, and I, I see that there’s this weird sort of, not what I call a diagnosed split personality, but there’s this very strong element within you that, uh, when you’re professional and you’re adult and you’re, and you have work to do, then you’re I’m sorry, 66.
Toby Dorr: 66. Yeah.
Christian Dorr: 66.
Toby Dorr: Can you believe it? I can’t.
Christian Dorr: You’re getting on it there. Okay. So anyway, so 66, so 66 year old Toby is the one that’s about all the hard work and getting the project done and seeing the results and then moving on to the next one immediately because you just, you can’t sit still. And, and again, I don’t know if that’s because you’re really all that hooked up into the it.
Christian Dorr: The labor of it, and the duty of it, or if that’s just a cover up because you just don’t want to face any of the little girl inside you, because a little girl is that big weight that I was talking about that, that just occupies this big space in the middle of your personality and your character and everything, is that five year old that just never grew up.
Christian Dorr: And you’re still there and I can’t do anything about it. And sometimes I could strangle you because you, the five year old drives me crazy. Um, but you, you have this element and it’s weird because it was also the five year old that disarmed all of those prison guards that, that they just believed that you could do no wrong, that you were so innocent and you were so cute and you were so little that you were just non, non, uh, There was
Toby Dorr: Non threatening.
Christian Dorr: non threatening, that’s right, so non threatening, and, and so they were willing to allow you any latitudes in order to just let you do what you do, which was to, you know, save prison dogs and save dogs.
Christian Dorr: convicted murderers from lifetime sentences and, you know, drug abusers
Toby Dorr: Well, that didn’t work out so well. Yeah.
Christian Dorr: yeah, so you’re a rescuer. And, uh, so the five year old is all a huge part of that.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Christian Dorr: I, I just don’t think that she ever grew up because the, the, when you, Dad was 27 and he got burned. You, you had this fractured moment from a normal childhood to this traumatic event that, uh, that just never really quite let you go.
Christian Dorr: So, interesting stuff.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Christian Dorr: So,
Toby Dorr: think my dad’s burned. There were five kids at that time. There were five of us. And I think that all five of us were affected in different ways. Of course, we were different ages. And, um, Many, maybe all the rest of my brothers and sisters don’t remember that time, but it still affected them, you know, and I could see it as they were adults.
Toby Dorr: And then my parents had 2 more kids later when my dad was home and their life was back to normal and there was a huge difference in the 1st, 5 of us in the 2nd, 2, there was just a huge difference. And, um. It’s, it was pretty significant, but I do have to say that I love doing the work. Everything I work on, I am so in love with it.
Toby Dorr: I just, I just can’t stop working on it because it just gives me so much joy and purpose and excitement. And,
Christian Dorr: So this is sort of a natural segue into the next portion of this episode, I say, and that is what’s going on now and what happens next. And so I, I learned, I learned, um, Just recently that, uh, at Toastmasters, they were talking about how you should, uh, give sort of an agenda, a summary of what it is that you’re going to say, and then give the body of what you’re going to say, and then repeat the summary at the end.
Christian Dorr: Uh, and it should include, Sort of what you’ve learned in the past or how things are going now and what you predict for the future. And so I feel like in so far between you and I, in this last 35 minutes that, uh, that I think we’re ready to talk about what’s next.
Toby Dorr: So I think that’s a great time. I feel like for the past 10 years, all of the work I’ve been doing. I mean, I wrote the memoir and that’s for, you know, anyone. But other than that, outside of the memoir, most of the work that I’ve been doing has been targeting. women who’ve been in prison or who are out of prison and they’re trying to rebuild their lives.
Toby Dorr: And that is part of my audience. That’s part of who I am. But I also have this second audience and this second audience is the woman I was before the escape, you know, a professional woman, um, busy in society, you know, volunteering, doing things to make a difference in my community. And, you know, a person with some authority in my job, but it wasn’t enough because there was something missing.
Toby Dorr: And so I’m starting to do some work towards that group of women who I call, um, they’re professional women. They’re at the midpoint of their life. Maybe they’re in their fifties or late forties, the sixties, and they have. You know, they’ve had Children and their Children have left home and now they’re empty nesters.
Toby Dorr: And now is the time really when they can let their shine out. They can turn into this, um, bring all their skills and all their gifts out into the world because they have the time to do it and they have the resources to do it. And so I am working on a three day summit, which
Christian Dorr: so,
Toby Dorr: to have in person. I don’t want it to be virtual because I believe community is so important and I want people to get together and interact with like minded women and form a community and the friendships.
Toby Dorr: So I want to have this seminar in person and I’m Planning it to last for three days and it’s going to be kind of focusing on the metamorphosis journey of women, you know What’s this next stage in life? And and what are you going to give to the world from it? And you know, let’s help them try to find the thing that sets their soul on fire So that they can bring it to the world and make a difference and i’m really excited about that summit and i’ve got so much work that i’ve been doing to put into it and i’ve also You know, I, I mean, Toby Doerr is my brand and I have a website Toby Doerr and, and everything has been about Toby Doerr.
Toby Dorr: But, you know, we talked earlier about death and, and it’s so important to me that whatever I’m doing, that someone else could pick it up and continue the work. And I don’t think they can pick it up and continue the work as Toby Doerr. So I kind of feel like I need to brand an overarching entity that kind of covers all these things that I’m doing, you know, and I’m part of that, but it goes beyond me and I.
Christian Dorr: I think one of the things that I find interesting about this is I, And maybe this is a gendered thing, maybe because I’m a guy that I feel this way, but I feel like, uh, legacy is rather important to me, and, and correct me if I’m wrong, but it doesn’t seem like legacy is that important to you, um, for you, it feels like, and again, correct me if I’m wrong, but it feels like you are, you’re more into the work and the results of the immediate works, uh, work, uh, the immediate Results of the works that you do, uh, is really rather important to you rather than what kind of a mark you’re going to leave on the world after you’re gone.
Christian Dorr: Like, how many people are going to remember who Toby Doar is?
Toby Dorr: yeah, so maybe in some ways, but in some ways it’s not true. I do want the work that I’m doing to continue on after I’m gone, but I don’t care if it has my name attached
Christian Dorr: right,
Toby Dorr: I want it to continue. I want to put some things in motion that other women could pick up and, and continue doing. And so I feel like I want to give a name to that
Christian Dorr: So, so let me,
Toby Dorr: Toby door.
Christian Dorr: let me interrupt one more thing is that, uh, this, this crossed my mind back, I don’t know, four or five minutes ago when I was thinking as I was listening to your description of the summit that you’re putting together. And one of the things that I think is critically important that I don’t think that you mentioned maybe, maybe indirectly.
Christian Dorr: By you just speaking and being who you are that you’re inherently being an exhibit of, of this characteristic, but I think that it’s worthy of actually putting a label on it and pointing at it and saying, you know, that’s real and, and, and sort of make people more aware of it. And that is you and your experience in going to prison and helping John Maynard escape from prison.
Christian Dorr: You’re a, you’re an extremely normal, regular, everyday American up until the age of 48 when you met John Maynard and realized that this guy made you feel like a rock star, that you were absolutely on cloud nine, that you, you were shot off into a, such a stratosphere when your relationship blossomed with, with John Maynard.
Christian Dorr: That you were willing to do anything and, and. Risk at all. And there was a lot on the table for you to risk. You had quite a family going on and you had, you had money and careers and things that were happening in your life. And you gave it all up because you were willing to go to any extreme to just feel validated and feel like somebody loves you and worships the ground you walk on, like John Maynard treated you.
Christian Dorr: And. I just think that what’s important to say here is that the, the people, the, the women that you met while you were in prison, and the people that are in prison today, and the women that are in prison today, will have a connection with you that is organic. It’s, it’s already there because you’re a felon.
Christian Dorr: Right? And they, they can respect that and understand that you’re one of them. Uh, but the rest of the women that are country club women that you’re reaching out to, what they don’t, may not understand is that they are you too. You’re a country club woman. You’re, you’re, there’s no doubt about it.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Christian Dorr: the experience that you’ve had is no different than what they are in jeopardy of.
Christian Dorr: You know, that any person can fall victim to some ridiculous little thing that can just turn their whole lives upside down and you and I always use this, this analogy that if, uh, if you are a highly performing professional and you have a lot of stress at work and you swing by the bar on the way home and you have a couple of cocktails and then you drive home thinking that you’re okay and you wind up, you don’t even have to it.
Christian Dorr: You don’t even have to be drunk. You just have to be on the road after you’ve been at the bar and happen to have the unlucky circumstance that somebody steps out in front of you and you kill them while you’re driving home. And the next thing you know, you’re doing time for manslaughter and your whole life is turned upside down.
Christian Dorr: And that’s, that’s as quickly as it can happen just like that to anyone.
Toby Dorr: right.
Christian Dorr: And so those are the people that, uh, that need to understand that. You can make a difference before you go and break John Maynard out of
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Christian Dorr: You can
Toby Dorr: It’s more preventative. The second effort that I’m doing is more preventative.
Christian Dorr: There you are. Okay.
Toby Dorr: mean, the second effort that I’m doing is more preventative. It’s more, you know, grab life and make something happen with it because this is your opportunity. And, you know, I get emails. I get them every week. I don’t share them all with you, but last week I got two and they were from women who said, Oh, I just saw you on Dateline or I just read your book and I have to reach out and tell you Oh, my gosh, that could have been me.
Toby Dorr: I could do that. You know, people relate. So, you know, and actually, Chris and I went to This Is Criminal podcast last week, this last weekend in Washington, D. C., and it was the best evening of my life. I’ve had in so long. It just was a great evening. But I went backstage and met with Phoebe Judge, who’s the host of This Is Criminal, and Lauren, who’s the co owner of the podcast, and she’s the technical person.
Toby Dorr: And we had the best time, and You know, they even mentioned me in their program that night. And, and both of them said on a previous podcast that my episode was their favorite. And when we were leaving, we were standing in the lobby and I was talking to someone and this woman came up to me and she said, my granddaughter, she said, I don’t mean to interrupt, but my granddaughter would really like to meet you.
Toby Dorr: You’re her hero. And. I was like, Oh, wow. I mean, you know, what an honor for someone to look to me for inspiration or even admiration and want to, you know, and I have people email me or and I email them back and they go, Oh my gosh, I can’t believe you replied. And it’s like, well, why wouldn’t I reply? So I think, you know, I want to reach out to these women, this group of women, and give them some tools because if we could, if we could inspire 30 women, 100 women, 1000 women to take their knowledge and their experiences and start some kind of movements that will Change something in someone’s world.
Toby Dorr: Wow. Isn’t that a legacy to leave behind? That’s the legacy I want.
Christian Dorr: I wonder where this is going because, uh, we, we’re still dealing with the circumstances of our lives and, uh, you and I don’t have, uh, money in the bank and we, um, we struggle with all of that. But at the same time, I feel like our, our characters in the right place. I
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I think so.
Christian Dorr: think we’re, we’re doing whatever we can with the meager resources that we can to make a difference in people’s lives.
Christian Dorr: And I just hope that, uh, that turns into something really awesome. Uh, it’s not going to be easy, but, uh, you know, maybe the thing is, is that God’s running the show
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Christian Dorr: it doesn’t matter Transcribed It doesn’t really matter what my opinions are. It just, what matters is that I continue to, uh, do the best that I can sort of obey.
Christian Dorr: And, uh, and so that’s all of that’s really important to me. So I’m kind of looking forward to see where this winds up in the end.
Toby Dorr: Well, you know, Chris, my mantra has always been to go through whatever door God puts in front of me. And this is the next door. I mean, we moved to Sedalia, then we moved to Kansas City and we do all these things just on a wing and a prayer. We moved to Washington DC. I mean, everything we do, if you were a logical, rational person, we wouldn’t have done any of it, you know, but that isn’t what we operate by.
Toby Dorr: We, we go where we’re called, we go where we’re pushed and, and we, try to make a difference wherever we go. And so I have total faith that it’s going to work out and it’s going to blossom and be brilliant. And, you know, I’m, I’m so excited about it.
Christian Dorr: Yep, well, if we can, if we can make a difference, I should think that at least some part of it would be that we’ve moved to Washington D. C. Now, how, how much closer can you be to the center, the seat of power, world power, and Mm hmm. Have an opportunity like living here to make a difference where it can make a difference.
Toby Dorr: right.
Christian Dorr: so easy for us to just, you know, we can. Drop what we’re doing and spend, you know, 45 minutes in the car and be at, uh, Phoebe judges, uh, podcast
Toby Dorr: In the Lincoln Theater. That’s a hundred years old.
Christian Dorr: that, we were at the top of the Washington monument. And a week before that, we were at the Smithsonian Institute.
Christian Dorr: And a week before that, we were
Toby Dorr: were in the mountains.
Christian Dorr: at the college. And yeah, we went to the mountains.
Toby Dorr: Yeah,
Christian Dorr: Yeah. So there’s, uh,
Toby Dorr: there’s just, there’s the impact you can make in this area is so extreme. It’s a perfect place for us to be, I think.
Christian Dorr: so I just, uh, I’m looking forward to this. I think it’ll be fun to see how things unfold. And this is an election year. Politics are, it’s in the air. I don’t know, uh, where that’s all going to take us, but, uh, but that’s, that’s another conversation that, uh, that we should have, uh, maybe on an episode coming up and, and, and I would speak more in that In that context, um, then I would in today’s context, uh, I think there’s a lot of what, uh, this episode has been about is you and me together and what it is that we’ve done together and where this is come and gone.
Christian Dorr: And so, uh, so I think there’s a lot more to talk about. I hope that I can get together with you more and do, you know, do another 10 podcasts or
Toby Dorr: well, I still want to do another podcast with you where you can share your story because I think your story is inspiring and and we haven’t had time for you to share that today. So tell me how you felt about meeting john Maynard, because we went to prison and met him in person, which most people said, what, you know, they can’t believe that.
Christian Dorr: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: about that experience.
Christian Dorr: Well, you know, John Maynard is a, he’s a product of a really broken system and I don’t mean just a little bit broken. It is shattered. I mean, the, the prison system, uh, the judicial system, the way that everything is set up, it’s just, it’s a nasty situation. And, uh, it’s not just John Maynard. There’s plenty of other people out there that are, uh, That are, have been locked away and they’re American citizens and they’ve been locked away from all the rest of us.
Christian Dorr: And the rest of us would rather just, you know, me included, I’d rather just not spend a whole lot of my lifetime thinking about all the people that are behind bars that made a mistake. You know, all it takes is to be silly enough to be 17 years old and be with another guy that’s 18 years old that you don’t even know that he’s carrying a weapon and that, uh, you think that you, the two of you are just smoking pot and having a good time.
Christian Dorr: And the next thing you know, your buddy is shot somebody in the, in the chest and killed them. And you don’t realize that the law is built in such a way to, to put you away for the rest of your life because you’re, you’re
Toby Dorr: You were with someone when a crime was committed.
Christian Dorr: Yes, not, yeah, not just that you’re with somebody while the felony was being committed, so that’s a felony, felony murder, and I get that, uh, it’s not just that, it’s also that, uh, that John Maynard is not valued.
Christian Dorr: Already, ahead of time, even before, uh, even before the, the murder and, and the trial and him going to prison, he was one of those people that the rest of society didn’t have any good use for, and they were just as happy to see him go to prison and get out of their hair. And that’s not right. That’s not the way that the world should be, but it is.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. And you know, if you look around, prisons are intentionally put in places that aren’t very visible. You know, they put them out in the desert or they put them, you know, in the middle of the woods or they put them back off of a country road there, they, because it’s easier for us to. Yeah, out of sight, out of mind.
Toby Dorr: That’s right. That’s right. So, what was it like meeting John?
Christian Dorr: so he, he was everything I would expect him to be. And of course, I knew so much about him. I talked to him on the phone and I, and I read his entire courtroom transcript from when he was, uh, sentenced, you know, he was, uh,
Toby Dorr: His original
Christian Dorr: for, yeah, his original sentence, and, and I read all of that, and I read it all in detail, and I, uh, obviously had a lot of insight from my wife, who happened to be an ex lover, kind of, escape artist friend of his, and, uh, and, and so, uh, so I, I knew a lot, uh, and he lived up to all of what I expected.
Christian Dorr: He was, he was charming and handsome and polite and he shook my hand and he, uh, showed respect and there was a respect that both of us shared with each other that I think that it’s sort of one of those things and I, I see this in, I see this in, uh, in pop culture all the time that, uh, that in order to, in order to receive respect, you have to show it.
Christian Dorr: And so that’s, that’s sort of a lot of what happened with John Maynard and I, what I needed him to know and you to know is that I’m not afraid of it. I’m not afraid of John Maynard, and I’m not afraid of a relationship that you guys had years ago, and I’m not afraid of your history and, and the event and you going on the run together for a 12 day vacation in the, in the, uh, stylish hills of Tennessee and all that.
Christian Dorr: I, uh, I’m not afraid of it. I just, it doesn’t, there’s nothing to be afraid of here. It’s just something that happened in the past and, uh, and I wanted him to know that I could, I could, uh, be in a room with him and show him respect and dignity without also being fearful that, you know, my wife is still in love with him or, it was closure for all of
Toby Dorr: was closure. Yeah, it was definitely closure for me. And, and it was so beneficial. Uh
Christian Dorr: I don’t think there’s anything that could have said closure better than just being there in person, physically in person and shaking his hand. I mean, I think it, it sort of makes a pretty powerful statement. It’s sort of, uh, I’ve heard that thing that, uh, a lion doesn’t have to prove that he’s a lion. He doesn’t have to say that he’s a lion.
Christian Dorr: He just is a lion and everybody knows it. And that’s what I wanted to get across to John Maynard is that, uh, I’m not afraid. And, uh, and I think that worked out well.
Toby Dorr: I do two.
Christian Dorr: yeah, I, I like John Maynard. I liked his personality. Uh, he was, he was really easy to talk to. We were there for a couple of hours, weren’t
Toby Dorr: Yeah. We were two hours, I think.
Christian Dorr: Yeah, yeah, and uh, and it was good. And I, I remember at the end of the visit, I, I remember walking, Over to the far side of the visiting room, which was a large room, and away from the table to give you and John Maynard an opportunity to just, you know, say goodbye, and, uh, without me breathing right down your necks, and, and, uh, and I, it went the way I, it went the way I would expect it to.
Christian Dorr: Is that uh, that I walked away with the girl. Ha ha
Toby Dorr: Yeah. . Yeah.
Christian Dorr: Ha ha
Toby Dorr: What a prize.
Christian Dorr: ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha
Toby Dorr: You’re about the only one in the world that wanted it.
Christian Dorr: ha ha ha. Well, God doesn’t value people the same way.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Yeah.
Christian Dorr: people do. So, yeah. Yeah.
Toby Dorr: So I’m going to share two things that I learned from your mother as we close. Um, but I remember when I first met you and after we started talking to each other and we kind of had a weird.
Christian Dorr: Um,
Toby Dorr: um, you said to me, you know, for the last 13 years, since you, you and your first wife had gotten divorced, that you cried all the time.
Toby Dorr: And you told your mom, there’s no woman out there for me. You know, I’m just going to be alone. There’s no one for me. And Chris said, or, and your mom said to you. Chris, there’s someone out there for you, but you just have to be patient because you don’t know what God’s putting her through to be ready for you.
Toby Dorr: So I like to say it’s all your fault.
Christian Dorr: Uh, Yeah, yeah, fair enough. I, I accept it. I have broad shoulders.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Christian Dorr: Yeah. It’s all my fault. Yep.
Toby Dorr: And the last thing, yeah. What’s the advice your mom gave us when we told her we were getting
Christian Dorr: Uh, she said that, uh, being in love with somebody isn’t about two people facing each other and embracing each other. It’s about two people holding hands and facing the same direction and moving in the same direction into their future together. So it’s more like you and I are walking into our future, uh, facing forward.
Christian Dorr: And not toward each other. So that’s, uh, that’s, that’s pretty important. And my, my mom, I think there was a bit of wisdom that was there. So
Toby Dorr: yes, we had a lot
Christian Dorr: uh, maybe some fraction of that brushed off on me.
Toby Dorr: I think so, Chris. I think so. Well, thanks so much for being on Fierce Conversations with Toby. Is there anything else you want to share before we leave?
Christian Dorr: Uh, no, but I will think of a dozen more things about 10 minutes from now.
Toby Dorr: I’m sure you will, and you can come right on out here and we’ll talk about them. All right. Thanks, Chris.
Christian Dorr: All right.
Toby Dorr: you soon.
Christian Dorr: Love you. Ciao.
Toby Dorr: you too.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for joining me on Fierce Conversations with Toby. Your support and listening means so much to me, and I hope today’s conversation makes a difference in your world. If you would like to support this podcast, there are many ways to do so. I found these ways tend to help the most in getting our message out into the world.
Toby Dorr: Number one, subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen to, or watch this podcast. If you can leave a five star rating or a like on this episode on YouTube, that helps even more. And if you leave a comment or a review, that helps the most. The next way you can support Fierce Conversations with Toby is to join our Patreon at patreon.com slash fierce conversations. All tiers come with a downloadable digital gratitude journal created by me and membership in a private Facebook group that I also lead. Most importantly, 10 percent of all proceeds from your subscription will go directly to donating my workbooks to women in prison.
Toby Dorr: Finally, sharing the link to this show with your friends, family, and anyone who wants to listen is appreciated more than I can say. Thank you again for joining me today and supporting this show by listening to it and sharing it with friends. Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Dorr, produced by Number 3 Productions.
Toby Dorr: The theme song that you’re hearing now, Groovin was composed and arranged by Lisa Plass. Lisa also plays the flute for the theme with Carolyn Parody on piano and Tony Ventura on bass. Find out more at tobydore. com. This is Fierce Conversations with Toby. Escape your prison.
