Toby Dorr: Hi, everyone, and welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby, the show where we discover the silver lining in life’s most difficult stories. I’m your host, Toby Dorr.
Toby Dorr: Hello, this is Toby, and I’m so excited to introduce you to my next guest on Fierce Conversations with Toby. Uh, this is, uh, my guest, do you go by Bex or by Becca? I’ve seen both names.
Bex Gunn: Um, Uh, Becca Orbeck. Those are my two chosen names.
Toby Dorr: Okay, well I’m going to use Bex if you don’t care because I think that’s pretty unique and I like unique names.
Toby Dorr: So this is Bex Gunn and she considers herself a nomad. She says she’s lived in eight different states and seems to be able to find herself at home in just about any social circle. Music, tattooing, and poetry are the hobbies she’s most passionate about but even more so than that she’s determined to help people through the human experience with love and kindness.
Toby Dorr: And I think that’s just beautiful. So before we get started, we’re going to start with an easy question. What’s your favorite color and what do you think that says about you?
Bex Gunn: Periwinkle. Um,
Toby Dorr: I love when people get really specific on that. Not just blue or green or purple. It’s periwinkle. I love that. I
Bex Gunn: feel like what is the, it’s, it’s the color of my heart. it just, I, when I look at that color, I feel really complete and calm and peaceful and like warm and, and full in my, in my heart chakra.
Toby Dorr: love that. I just love that. Okay. Um, you’re the first one that’s picked periwinkle. So I love that. I’m going to have to go do some research on. I have a whole stack of books over here on colors because colors are so important to me. And I love knowing where the color came from. When they first made it into a paint, you know, what ingredients they found to make a particular color.
Toby Dorr: And when they started using that paint color, and then, you know, what colors go with other colors and what colors clash with other I just am so into colors. So I think that’s really interesting.
Bex Gunn: You’ll have to let me know about Periwinkle
Toby Dorr: I will. I will. And it has a great story. Okay, so let’s start out, um, by telling us, what’s the hardest decision you’ve ever had to make?
Bex Gunn: Uh, honestly, the hardest decision that I ever had to make, um, I would definitely go with the, um, the time that I left state and I, I had to leave my kids behind because I was in active addiction and I had to leave state because I, I just, I couldn’t stop using, like, honestly.
Toby Dorr: so you had to leave your kids behind in order to save yourself, which really, Saves your kids in the long run,
Bex Gunn: yeah,
Toby Dorr: there’s some tough choices involved in that. There’s some really tough choices. And I think you mentioned to me that the anniversary of your recovery’s soon. Tell us a little bit about recovery, about what recovery’s been like for you.
Bex Gunn: Um, I mean, honestly, at the very beginning, methadone saved my life. Um, there’s a huge stigma behind methadone, and I think that that’s genuinely disappointing because if it’s used correctly, it can definitely be a tool. Um, but, uh, Also, um, after like during in, in treatment, like when you’re in treatment with methadone, you have to have counseling.
Bex Gunn: And I started making the decision to like have counseling once a week. And then it got to where a whole bunch of stuff changed at my clinic. And I honestly, I started growing mushrooms, like psilocybin mushrooms. And, um, I started microdosing. And I started noticing I didn’t need the methadone as much anymore and I just I quit taking it and because I knew I was going to lose the counseling when you quit taking methadone.
Bex Gunn: They give you one month of counseling and then no more. So, um, I, uh, I went straight away and got a, uh, an actual like psychiatrist, um, and I participated in weekly therapy with them. Um, and now it’s, I, I, I stopped methadone in August of 2022, and I mean, I stopped use of like illicit drugs April 6th of 2018, or 20, yeah, 2018.
Toby Dorr: 2018, so this is 2024, so six years, that’s excellent. That’s really, you know, impressive. That’s such a hard path to travel and so many opportunities to relapse and start over. And yeah, that’s a tough, tough journey. what’s a significant event in your life that knocked you down and how did you pick yourself up?
Bex Gunn: Uh, well, you know, honestly, last year, um, I had last year, I, at the very beginning of the year, I made an intention board and I, I started doing some self care and, um, I was, um, I’m kind of going through, like, we’re separated now, but at the time, you know, my, My, um, he’s still my husband. Um, but you know, we’re in a different place now.
Bex Gunn: Um, he was, he was, he was drinking a lot and, um, things just didn’t go great and I was trying to work on myself and the more I started to work on myself, the more things started to deteriorate between us and I think it was because You know, it’s hard when you’re still kind of in, well you are, you’re in active addiction and the other person with you is not doing that and, and they’re just That’s that’s how you stop addiction anyway is through self love and you know, community and things like that.
Bex Gunn: But, um, sorry, that answer was kind of scattered. But,
Toby Dorr: that’s good. I think it’s important that you surround yourself with people who support the journey you’re on. And when you have someone, especially someone that you love, that can’t do that. It’s so easy to be drawn back into it. So you really have to find a way to make a change, you know? And that’s one of the things that I, uh, work with in my.
Toby Dorr: Some of my projects is, you know, women coming out of prison and, you know, one of the first things they need to do, you can’t go back to where you lived before, where you got in trouble. You’ve got to make a change. You’ve got to put yourself in a different environment. You’ve got to, if you want to be different, you have to live different and you have to, you know, Live in a different space, and that’s the hardest thing to do because we all wanna clinging to what’s familiar and what we’re comfortable with and what we love.
Toby Dorr: So it’s, that was one of the things that makes change so hard. Mm-Hmm.
Bex Gunn: yeah, and and that’s super true. And it, you know, it’s it. I find it interesting. Um, you know what you said, uh, because When we are surrounding ourselves with, you know, that type of energetic vibration, it’s, it’s, you just attract more of that type of behavior. But, you know, when, um, when you are an active addiction and you try to get away, this is kind of where my mission with the criminal justice system comes in is because sometimes when you got to leave state, Because you can’t stop using, you might be on probation and they want you to wait 75 days here in Colorado to commute your probation to another state. And that’s kind of what happened to me was I just, I just dipped. And so this is, this is the part where you said something knocked me down. I guess this may be a better example because I got arrested in 2018 for Having drugs on me. I was, I was trying to shoot up drugs in the bathroom at Target here.
Toby Dorr: Mm-Hmm.
Bex Gunn: somebody, you know, told the manager and they called the police and I went to jail for 18 days.
Bex Gunn: I got out. I started using again right away. And then I got on methadone, but I was still occasionally using and the judge put me on probation. I just left. I was like, I can’t, I can’t do this anymore. So it took me six years. to be able to afford to hire a lawyer. I made too much money for a public defender, but didn’t have enough.
Toby Dorr: not enough to afford a lawyer, because that’s big expense.
Bex Gunn: I mean, honestly, the lawyer that I, cause I, I got a great job here. Now I tried to, I manifested a whole new life after I started putting in love for myself. I, my life changed and, um, I just, It did. It’s just, it’s full of gratitude and abundance all day, every day. And, um, I got a lawyer and he, he worked with me to make sure I could, you know, pay what I could afford to pay.
Bex Gunn: And then, you know, gave me the option to pay it out and I have to go sit in jail. And that’s, that’s where this whole mission started. And I feel it like this is part of my purpose. Laughter.
Toby Dorr: us about that mission pur and that purpose you feel called to.
Bex Gunn: Yeah, um, when I was in jail, um, this was last month actually, I just got done fixing all this stuff. Um, but when I was in jail, I, I interacted with multiple women who are addicted to things like, I mean, some are addicted to like meth or heroin, um, but here in Colorado Springs, the blues are huge here.
Bex Gunn: That’s blues, blues, blues. That’s all I heard in jail was blues. And I was like, what are blues? And it’s, um, they’re fake oxycodones that they’re pressing with fentanyl and this other drug that has a Z sound at the beginning that I can’t remember the name of ever. And it’s, it’s even more addictive than.
Bex Gunn: Fentanyl is, and I was interacting with these women and, and talking to them and they were like, how did you get off drugs? And I was like, well, you know, I, therapy.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, therapy does wonders. That’s a big help.
Bex Gunn: My daughter didn’t talk to me for three years and we’re really close now. And she was like, mom, you’re the reason there you’re proof that therapy works.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Yeah, that’s really important. And, you know, kudos to your daughter for giving you the space to get through it and then coming back into your life and supporting you. I mean, you’ve got to, she’s got to look at you and feel inspired that you’ve given her this role model that you can overcome. And that’s pretty powerful.
Toby Dorr: I mean, it’s easy for people to live a great life if they’ve never had a challenge that they’ve had to overcome. Yeah. Overcoming those challenges make you such a stronger person.
Bex Gunn: this is true.
Toby Dorr: So I just watched, there is a great documentary on TV about Oxycontin. It’s called painkillers, I think, and it was, it’s really good.
Toby Dorr: Um, but I also had two knee replacements in this, in this. past year, this past 12 months. And after the knee replacements, they prescribed me Oxycontin. And I was terrified to take them because of all the stories you hear about how addictive they are. You know, and I went to the doctor and I was like, I just don’t feel good taking these.
Toby Dorr: I’m so worried I’m going to get addicted. And he said, well, how many are you taking? I said one tablet twice a day. And he
Bex Gunn: Oh dear.
Toby Dorr: you’re going to be fine. You know, but I, I just, There is such a stigma out there about Oxycontins. And, um, you know, if you watch that documentary, I think that the drug company that manufactured it really created that negativity because, um, they encouraged doctors to prescribe more and more and more so they can make more money.
Toby Dorr: And, and I think that’s where some of the addictions came from.
Bex Gunn: It’s true. Um, there was, it might still be on Hulu. I’m not sure, but, um, I think it was Hulu had a show with Michael Keaton called Dope Sick. And, um, it covers the story of the Sackler family. And, um, it also covers. Like the, um, Oxycontin, like sweep that went through the apple, the Appalachia area.
Toby Dorr: Yeah,
Bex Gunn: um, I mean, it was, it was really powerful.
Bex Gunn: Um,
Toby Dorr: that up. I’m gonna look that up. The one I watched was called Painkillers, and it just came in. But it was really good. And it was, uh, it was reported from the perspective of the federal and state attorneys who were trying to hold Purdue accountable for misuse of the drug. It’s really good, but it certainly is a problem in our, uh, culture, in our communities now.
Toby Dorr: And I think, uh, know, I was in, I spent 27 months in prison and I have to think I’d say probably like 90 percent of the women I was in prison with were there because of something related to drugs. You know, drugs got them into prostitution or drugs got them into stealing credit cards or, but you know, drugs were at the root of it all.
Toby Dorr: And it’s so difficult to break yourself away from that. So kudos to you for getting through that journey and staying on it. So I think that’s awesome.
Bex Gunn: think honestly, the therapy is what helped. And the reason I think that is because I know everybody that I know that has a form of addiction has an underlying and mental illness that’s not being treated. And I think that’s, that’s where we’re failing as a society is because we’re looking at mental illness and addiction as two separate
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Bex Gunn: And we shouldn’t be doing that. Mental illness absolutely is a, um,
Toby Dorr: It’s just intertwined with the drug addictions. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a really good point. And I know that you said, um, had a mission to speak out about some injustices that you found in the justice system. So what are some of those?
Bex Gunn: I really do feel like, um, people who are incarcerated need better access to, um, mental health services, period. Um, when I was in jail, I took, I’m prescribed lithium. I take lithium, um, Once a day at bedtime, because it, it helps with my bipolar disorder. Cause I don’t make enough of it. And they told me, bring your pill bottle in.
Bex Gunn: They’ll give you your script. They wouldn’t, they wouldn’t give it to me. And I kept asking for it and they’re like, put in a kite. I’m like, what’s a kite? A kite is, you know what a kite is.
Toby Dorr: a form you fill out and get to the administration. And the cool thing about kites is they’re required to answer them, so they can’t just ignore them. But lots of times they just answer no.
Bex Gunn: Right. And I asked the depths. I was like, how long does it take? To get a response on a kite. They’re like minimum 48 hours to a week. And I’m like, I’m leaving in two days. I know, I knew I was getting out cause I was trying to fix my probation sentence, which I did, but, um, no, I knew I was going to get out.
Bex Gunn: And I was like, I, I need my medication, like I, I don’t like missing it. I, I feel strange when I don’t take it. They wouldn’t give it to me. And I also, because of drug use have terrible teeth, like just pretty much mental health access and access to like basic pain relief. Like on lithium, you can’t take anything but Tylenol.
Bex Gunn: That’s all I asked for. And they’re like, no, you have to have an order. And,
Toby Dorr: in prison, I fell and broke my leg and it took them 10 days to x ray it. And in that 10 days, they didn’t even give me aspirin. You know, I was laying there with a broken leg and I can understand the reasons behind the way they do things because they don’t want more drugs in the prison than they need to have.
Toby Dorr: But there has to be a balance. When someone needs something, you need to give it to them, you know, and when you go into jail or prison, excuse me, I got a twinkle in my throat when you go into jail or prison, the first thing they do, you can’t bring your medications in with you. And there are some medications that are dangerous to just stop cold turkey, and it takes them forever to approve and oftentimes they don’t and there were, you know, I have a story in my book.
Toby Dorr: My first roommate in jail was a girl who was just 19 and she was just like a, little girl. She just, but she heard voices and these voices told her to hurt people and she tried really hard to keep these voices at bay. Well, when she got arrested, she was on medication that did that for her. And by the time I was her roommate, she had been in jail for two or three months and had been off those medications and she kept asking for him and ask him for him and they wouldn’t give them to her.
Toby Dorr: Because they’re expensive. And one day, hopefully Mark can cut these out. One day she just lost it and she started hitting her head against the wall of the cell and hitting her fist against the wall and pushing the button and screaming, I need my meds. I need my meds. I can’t make these voices stop.
Toby Dorr: They’re telling me to hurt people. I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to do it. You know, they just had this fit. And so they, The first thing, of course, they did is run in with a bunch of officers to arrest her and put her in seg and,
Bex Gunn: oh, of course.
Toby Dorr: of proceeded and said, no, just stop, go get her some ice so we can put on her hands and get the swelling down and let me calm her down.
Toby Dorr: But she needs help. You guys need to act here. You need to do something. She needs more help than you can give her. And. They listened to me. I was just stunned. But the next day they took her to the mental hospital, which is where she needed to go so that they could evaluate her and get her on the right medications.
Toby Dorr: But you can’t just rip people from their medications and expect them to function in a really tough environment of being in jail or prison. I mean, that’s, that takes every ounce of strength you have to just get through being there. And to have to do it without medications that you need to have to keep you level and calm is just not acceptable.
Bex Gunn: Agreed.
Toby Dorr: need to be some changes there. So what other things did you see that you thought needed change?
Bex Gunn: I mean, honestly, I think, and it, it, my main focus, like I said, is primarily mental health and addiction, but just even the living conditions are so atrocious. Um, I do know, like, I could, the last time I was there, um, before, uh, I was doing this, uh, the three days that I did when I got arrested for this charge.
Bex Gunn: Um, they, I don’t know. It’s honestly, it’s, I feel like people were incarcerated needs some sort of advocate for their basic human rights to be treated like human beings. We, we are all part, like I, I, I, like you said, I, we’re all part of the human experience and we’re sitting here, like, I had to beg for toilet paper the, the, when I got arrested the first time
Toby Dorr: Women in high products, you know, I didn’t need them luckily, but everyone else did and, and there’s a shortage of them. I mean, that’s ridiculous.
Bex Gunn: when I, got arrested for this charge. I was really addicted to dope, like really addicted to heroin, really addicted to meth. And I had been up for three days when they arrested me. I woke up because they, I was hysterical. They took me to the hospital. The hospital gave me Xanax, which I don’t take, but I had a prescription for.
Bex Gunn: And, and I, but I just never took it cause I hated it. Um, but they gave me Xanax and then I woke up dope sick. And. I mean, I don’t know how experienced you are with opiate withdrawals, but
Toby Dorr: I’m not at all.
Bex Gunn: it literally, it feels like you’re dying. The body thinks it’s dying. And heroin withdrawals can kill you because you die from the side effects of the withdrawals.
Bex Gunn: Like, You get really bad diarrhea, vomiting, I mean, shaking, like the inside of your bones hurt. And I remember, it’s funny because when I was in jail the last time, I remembered the depth from the last time and she was a total asshole to me. I’m sorry.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, no, that’s. Yeah,
Bex Gunn: honestly, she, she was making fun of me to another deputy. And when I came in this time, she’s like, I remember you. And I was like, yeah, I remember you too. Love you. Everything.
Toby Dorr: ran into a lot of officers. Who I felt were just there doing the job because it was their only chance in life to control somebody. At the same time, I ran into some beautiful, wonderful officers that did advocate for us in certain instances. And, you know, there, I think there is a problem there because corrections officers don’t make a lot of money.
Toby Dorr: So they don’t really attract a high class of people. And, you know, it’s just kind of, you know, You know, a vicious circle and gosh, we throw people in prison for, you know, the craziest thing you throw them in prison. I was in jail with this one woman who kept coming back for not paying child support. She had five kids and she was a drug addict and she was a prostitute and she lived on the streets.
Toby Dorr: And so, you know, the police would pick her up through, raids at different places and bring her animal and she’d have always have a warrant because she wasn’t paying child support. It’s like how in the world do you expect her to pay child support? She doesn’t have a job. Maybe we should do some kind of training or some kind of, you know, drug therapy or counseling so that she can make money so she can pay her child support.
Toby Dorr: And throwing somebody in jail for 30 days. How does that help them pay their child support? Because if they do have a job and they are trying to get through, then being in jail for 30 days causes them to lose their job. So then they really can’t pay their child support. It’s just a catch 22. There’s so many ridiculous things in our justice
Bex Gunn: sorry.
Toby Dorr: system.
Bex Gunn: Uh, I think, I don’t think, this is my personal belief is that, um, I mean, we, we live in a capitalist society and they’re privatizing correctional facilities. Now, all, most, most correctional facilities are privatized. They make money
Toby Dorr: my leg was in a private prison.
Bex Gunn: Yeah. And they, and they make money every time they stuff somebody in jail or prison
Toby Dorr: know, some of those organizations that build private prisons, um, like they just built one in Arizona. I think it was, but let’s just say a state, cause I can’t swear it was Arizona, but those private prisons will come in and they’ll build a prison and they’ll contract with the state to take, you know, their, their state inmates, but in their claws.
Toby Dorr: They write that the prison will always be at 90 percent capacity or above. And if it’s not, the state has to pay them a penalty they get paid by the inmate, you know, by how many inmates they have. So if they don’t have 90 percent or above, the states have to pay a huge penalty. So of course their goal is to keep those prisons 90 percent full or above, which just means throw somebody in prison for whatever you can find, because we don’t want to pay that fine this month.
Toby Dorr: It’s ridiculous.
Bex Gunn: they’re, they’re breeding recidivism just to make money. And, and they’re, I don’t think they’re doing it just inside the correctional system. I think it’s inside the judicial system too, because every time you take an inmate from El Paso County jail, yeah, I’m calling them out. Because But every time they take an inmate from El Paso County Jail over to the courthouse, they get 100.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s, it’s just, it’s just ridiculous. And you know, the phone calls of these phone companies, they charge, you know, two or 3 a minute for people to make phone calls from prison. It’s our only option. They don’t have a choice. So, especially when you’re in a women’s prison, how Can these mothers stay in contact with their Children and and be a benefit to their Children’s lives and ripping them out of their Children’s lives does not benefit the Children.
Toby Dorr: There needs to be a way that you can continue to parent while you’re incarcerated in a way that’s healthy for the kids. And that starts with affordable phone calls. And boy, you know, I saw a statistic. I can’t remember it now, but you know, the prison phone system, you know, The company that provides those calls made more than one of the biggest capitalist companies in America, you know, in this particular statistic that I saw in it.
Toby Dorr: It’s just ridiculous because you have a captive market, literally and figuratively. They’ll have no other way to make a phone call. And, uh, Phone calls and mail and visits are lifelines to people that are in prison, you know, and sometimes they put you in a prison. That’s a two or three hour drive for your family.
Toby Dorr: And if you’re, if you come from a family who isn’t affluent and have extra money to just get in the car and drive and stay at a motel to come visit you. I mean, people don’t get visits and. That increases recidivism because they don’t have an incentive to change while they’re in prison. If they don’t have contact with the people who love them.
Toby Dorr: It’s just such a vicious circle. There’s so many things that little things and huge things, but a billion little things that can make a difference.
Bex Gunn: it’s true. A billion, a billion little things add up to one giant problem. Like a, a, a, a huge problem. Like it, oh, I can’t, it makes me so frustrated.
Toby Dorr: But my, the, my, the best friend I made while I was in prison happened to be a woman who ended up getting a federal death sentence and they did execute her in January of 2021. And it was just a horrific experience to go through. But I wrote to her, you know, When they set her sentencing date and they returned her mail to me because I put it in a blue envelope.
Toby Dorr: Envelopes can only be white to people on death row. Like if somebody’s on death row, for gosh sakes, I think they need pink and purple and green and, and periwinkle envelopes because what do they have in their life? But nothing, nothing. So what does a colored envelope hurt. That’s the stupidest thing I ever heard of.
Bex Gunn: I think
Toby Dorr: Put a return label on it, you know, a mailing label with your address, they return them. Well, you can, I can see that people might stick drugs under the label and you know, but so just tear off the label, but give them the stinking letter, throw the envelope away, but give them the letter, let them have the contact with the people that were trying to lift them up and support them through this journey.
Toby Dorr: It’s just, ludicrous some of the things. And there’s some, um, someone told me recently that their loved one was in a prison where they decided they weren’t going to give them the actual mail. They were just going to scan them and give them the letter. So you can’t send them a card or anything because they don’t allow.
Toby Dorr: And you know, it’s, it just doesn’t make sense. It just doesn’t make sense.
Bex Gunn: That’s not right. I mean, honestly, um, it’s like our country has gotten so big and full of itself that we’ve decided who gets to be human beings and who doesn’t. And, and that’s, that’s really disappointing. And, you know, um, like Portugal, for example, they have, they are a case study for what you can do with a country.
Bex Gunn: Um, politically and like through mental health care. They have a whole thing. I, I don’t know all of the details. I’ve read the article like three or four times, but I’m old. Uh, but, um, they basically turned everything around. They, they turned, they had a really high, um, use of drug, not use. Um, they had a really high drug crime rate and they, um, They turned it to where they stopped incarcerating people for drug charges and started applying things like support through your community, helping you get a job, giving you a place to live.
Bex Gunn: And I, I talked to, I work for a major mobile carrier and I, so I talked to people all day long. And I talked to a guy who is actually in Portugal and he said, the articles are true, like everything about Portugal, the way they, they kind of run things because they, they, they keep the idea that. Everybody is a human being, not just the people who aren’t criminals or who don’t do drugs, because drug addicts, crime is a side effect of doing drugs.
Bex Gunn: Like, I mean, it’s not an excuse, but, um, cause you just, you know, you shouldn’t,
Toby Dorr: it’s the result. Yeah, I think you go back and in this documentary, I was telling you about painkillers. They said they had done this study where they trace the crime rates and laid them on the same chart as they. charted the crack. Here comes my dog. I’m dog sitting. Um, they laid them over the same chart where they, um, tracked the crack drug problem and they matched.
Toby Dorr: So the crime rate went up at the very same rate at the very same time as the crack addiction rate went up. So I really do think if we can tackle drug addictions and give people other options, ways to help them instead of just throwing them in jail. That doesn’t get somebody over a drug addiction. would see a huge reduction in our crime rates. So yeah, I, I think that’s so important. So who’s been your most important mentor
Bex Gunn: Oh, honestly, this is going to sound like a cop out, but I swear it’s not every human being that I have ever come into contact with has helped shape how I react to the world around me. Like,
Toby Dorr: on that?
Bex Gunn: everybody has mentored me in one way or another, because I mean, you, you grow through what you go through. So, um, I don’t have.
Bex Gunn: a single specific one because I’m trying to act, interact with everybody, Toby. I want, I want to spread love to all the people.
Toby Dorr: I love that. That’s beautiful. And I think that gives us all something to stop and think about too. If it’s true that every person you interact with shapes that person’s life, then makes you kind of think twice about road rage and being impolite to the checker at the grocery store for something that’s out of their control.
Toby Dorr: I mean. It really makes you stop and think that the whole world benefits if we’re just kind people, you know, nobody benefits from anything that’s angry or mad or it just kind of makes you stop and think I think what an impact we have on those around us without even knowing it. And
Bex Gunn: a decision at the beginning of the year to make sure that all the people that I personally interact with know that I, I love them and care about them. No, I’m not, I’m not perfect. I, I definitely mess up. I’ve definitely been an a hole too. Some people sometimes, I, I, I, I’m my parents caretaker and I was late yesterday to go to work and my dad said something and he didn’t hear me and I repeated it and I sounded snappy and I called him when I got to work and I was like, dad, I just want to say I’m, I’m sorry if I sounded snappy with you.
Bex Gunn: I wasn’t yelling at you. I was frustrated and I shouldn’t. Have reacted that way. And to me, even calling and sending that type of kindness, kind gesture out, you know, helps him know that. I just had a bad reaction and I
Toby Dorr: I think that’s beautiful because we sometimes we can’t control an instant it. snap that we do. But to go back and acknowledge it and just let the person know, I know I did that, you know, and that isn’t what I wanted to do. That’s a game changer. That’s just huge.
Bex Gunn: accountability is super important and I, it took a long time for me to get to that point where I was like, oh, I did this. I’m responsible for that because the only thing I can control, the only emotions and behaviors I can control is, is me. And so, I need to make sure that I control that because if I’m putting out, like you said, if I’m putting out like anger and negative energy and vibrations, that will, that, that actually attracts those kind of vibrations towards you.
Bex Gunn: So when you put out gratitude and love and kindness, that’s what you get back. Oh, you gave me
Toby Dorr: I think that’s beautiful. I think that’s so true. You know, and, and in this conversation, I’m just realizing, I think people will be so surprised to learn how much they can learn from a recovering drug addict or from someone who’s been
Bex Gunn: goosebumps, Toby!
Toby Dorr: I mean, there’s so much wisdom that comes through going through something and You know, there are a group of people we all know that would say, who cares about drug addicts, you know, let’s just get rid of them.
Toby Dorr: We all have a place. We all have something we can offer to the world. And I think trying as a, as a country, trying to get the people who are in an addiction or, you know, homeless or whatever they’re going through, if, if we can try to lift them up through that, we’ll all benefit.
Bex Gunn: I think
Toby Dorr: It doesn’t solve the problem by just cutting them off.
Bex Gunn: It’s true. Um, that’s, that’s kind of, kind of what I was trying to utilize, not utilize, it’s not the right word. That’s kind of what I was trying to express in when I was in jail because I mentioned before, I spoke with so many women who are addicted to drugs and, you know, a couple of them asked me if I would be their sponsor and I was like, well, I don’t, I mean, I’ll, I’ll chat with you and we can, we can hang out and have coffee.
Bex Gunn: I don’t do the AA or anything. I, not that it’s not a wonderful program. It, it is, um, they just, they have a little bit more rigidity on what recovery looks like and recovery looks different to everybody. And, um, just like I don’t subscribe to religion, I don’t subscribe to an AA and it’s only because, you know, Um, there, there are just a bunch of rules and I mean, yeah, some people do need that, that, that level of rule, but I smoke weed.
Bex Gunn: I do mushrooms, but I don’t, I don’t go out and I don’t do heroin. I don’t do meth. I’m not selling my ukulele, my beautiful 500 Martin ukulele so I can go pick up some dope. I’m not doing that anymore. I’m not leaning into addictive behaviors. Um, being in recovery doesn’t mean being sober. It means stop ceasing the pattern of addiction.
Bex Gunn: Because,
Toby Dorr: That’s perfect. You know, my husband always tells me I’ve never. I don’t drink. I mean, I might have a sip of wine or something on, or champagne, whatever it is on New Year’s Eve, but I never drank a whole drink. And I never drank because I had two grandfathers who were alcoholics. And in high school, I had this feeling that if I started drinking, I would be an alcoholic too.
Toby Dorr: So I just never did. And so I never developed a taste for it. So even now I’ll take a sip of something, but. It really doesn’t taste good. I don’t like it. So I just don’t drink. You know, my husband tells me, Toby, you’re an alcoholic and alcoholics doesn’t mean you drink. There’s so much more behind it. And, and, you know, perhaps he’s right.
Toby Dorr: And I was somehow intuitive enough to know that I had that problem. And so I just never fed it, which was a blessing, but you’re right. It isn’t, you know, being. It doesn’t mean not being sober. It means changing your life. Changing your life’s what you need to do if you want to stay sober. You can’t just and do nothing else.
Toby Dorr: It won’t work.
Bex Gunn: I mean, you can be sober all day long. You can, you can not do anything and, and that’s fine. I, maybe one day I won’t smoke weed. Uh, we’ll see. But, um, you know, you could be sober all day long. But in the end, if you’re not, If you’re not working on what’s causing you to cycle on this behavior of use, um, then no, nothing’s really going to go anywhere.
Bex Gunn: And you’re, you’re, you’re really only living half of a life. You’re, you’re not unlocked because. You, you, you’re still holding stuff in for yourself and you, you gotta get rid of that. You gotta shed that part of your life so you can build a new one. I’ve lived like eight lives in this lifetime, so.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I love that. I’ve written down so many things that you’ve said that are impactful. And I’m going to have a hard time tiling your episode because there’s like about nine perfect titles. So this is going to be good.
Bex Gunn: Call it periwinkle.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. One of my options. Yeah. Yeah. So What’s one question you wish I’d asked?
Bex Gunn: Uh. Oh, that’s a toughie, Toby. Um, let me see. Let’s see, one question that I wish you’d asked.
Toby Dorr: What’s something you want to share with us that we haven’t talked about?
Bex Gunn: You know, um, I’ll share something that we haven’t talked about. Honestly, you asked me so many like thought provoking questions and I’m, I’m, I’m stuttering on that one. So I guess I’ll just share something. Um, I, uh,
Bex Gunn: I think that, um, no, you know what? Instead, uh, would it be okay if I read a quick little poem to
Toby Dorr: It would be beautiful if you read a poem. Yes.
Bex Gunn: I wrote this in jail.
Toby Dorr: Oh, cool. So I have a book I released that’s poems from prison and they’re all from my prison journals.
Bex Gunn: Oh, nice.
Toby Dorr: I love that. I can’t wait to hear it.
Bex Gunn: All right, so this is just one. It’s not the super, this is my, uh, choice one. The choices we make follow us around. But results ne’er well received, when humility finds not your heart, the mind will be deceived. When we hold accountable things that are less than good, then we have been anew reformed and living as we should.
Toby Dorr: Ah, that’s beautiful. I love it. You know, I love poetry so much because The power of poetry are the words you don’t use. It’s the spaces between the words where people can fill in the blanks. And I love that. That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. So is there a question you’d like to ask me?
Bex Gunn: Um, let’s see, I would love to know what your favorite book that you’ve written is.
Toby Dorr: My favorite book that I’ve read or written?
Bex Gunn: Both Give me both
Toby Dorr: so I have a lot of, I read, I mean, I read three or four books a week or maybe more sometimes. So when I was in the process of feeling I needed to write a memoir, help other women rebuild their lives. I drew inspiration from Jeanette Walls who wrote The Glass Castle and from Cheryl Strait who wrote Wild.
Toby Dorr: And I love those two books because they were stories that the author could have not told because it, you know, didn’t paint them in a great light. It painted them in a difficult life and they told them anyway. And the power of that story was talking about the difficult things. And so I love those two books for that reason.
Toby Dorr: And um, you know, I have a lot of books that are favorite stories, but those two books are the ones that really influenced me and impacted me.
Bex Gunn: Alright. I, I, I, um, I’d like to read, uh, wild. I’ve never read that book.
Toby Dorr: It’s really good. Yeah. You’ll like it. It’s really down. Cool.
Toby Dorr: yeah, it’s really good. She had a drug addiction too, I think, as I remember, and she, she, and her mother died of cancer that she wasn’t prepared for, and so she decided to walk the Pacific Coast Trail by herself so that she could find herself, and it was, it’s a powerful and beautiful book, so I love it.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, you would really like it.
Bex Gunn: I’ll check it out.
Toby Dorr: Okay, I think that’s pretty cool. So what’s one word that inspires you?
Bex Gunn: Hmm. It’s a hyph. It’s two words, but it has one meaning. Um, I heard this from Neil deGrasse Tyson, whom I’m going to go see in November. He’s going to be speaking here, and I’m really excited about that. Yeah, I’m super into that spacecraft. Uh, but, um, is Cosmic Perspective.
Toby Dorr: I love that. I love that. And what’s that say to you? Yeah,
Bex Gunn: to, when, when I start to get overwhelmed with my daily life, I take a step back. Think about Carl Sagan at the beginning of, Pale blue dot where he’s like, this is us, you know, and it’s a little pale blue dot. Um, at, at that point, when you, when you look at any problem that you have to face and you step way back, think about stepping way back into like, I let, I kind of let the universe.
Bex Gunn: Like I, I listen to the stillness that sits like right here. Some people call that God, um, but that’s stillness. I, I listen to it and I think about things on a bigger level than just me. So a cosmic perspective, what’s going on everywhere with everybody? Because we’re all part of
Toby Dorr: And that we all do have an influence on things way bigger than us. We just don’t know. And that’s why the way we treat others is so important.
Bex Gunn: a lot of people are still asleep and that’s, that, they’ll wake up eventually, hopefully, but,
Toby Dorr: I love that. I just love that. Well, thanks so much, Bex. I’ve loved our conversation. And I, like I said, I think people are really going to be inspired to hear what they can learn from a recovering drug addict. So thanks so much for being vulnerable enough to share with us. So
Bex Gunn: Of course, thanks for having me, Toby. I really appreciate
Toby Dorr: welcome. Thank you.
Bex Gunn: You have a wonderful day.
Toby Dorr: You too.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for joining me on Fierce Conversations with Toby. Your support and listening means so much to me, and I hope today’s conversation makes a difference in your world. If you would like to support this podcast, there are many ways to do so. I found these ways tend to help the most in getting our message out into the world.
Toby Dorr: Number one, subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen to, or watch this podcast. If you can leave a five star rating or a like on this episode on YouTube, that helps even more. And if you leave a comment or a review, that helps the most. The next way you can support Fierce Conversations with Toby is to join our Patreon at patreon.com/fierceconversations. All tiers come with a downloadable digital gratitude journal created by me and membership in a private Facebook group that I also lead. Most importantly, 10 percent of all proceeds from your subscription will go directly to donating my workbooks to women in prison.
Toby Dorr: Finally, sharing the link to this show with your friends, family, and anyone who wants to listen is appreciated more than I can say. Thank you again for joining me today and supporting this show by listening to it and sharing it with friends. Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Dorr, produced by Number 3 Productions.
Toby Dorr: The theme song that you’re hearing now, Groovin’ was composed and arranged by Lisa Plasse. Lisa also plays the flute for the theme with Carolyn Parody on piano and Tony Ventura on bass. Find out more at tobydorr. com. This is Fierce Conversations with Toby. Escape your prison.
