Toby Dorr: Hi, everyone, and welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby, the show where we discover the silver lining in life’s most difficult stories. I’m your host, Toby Dorr.
Toby Dorr: Hi, this is Toby and my guest today on Fierce Conversations is Katrina Butler. Katrina, I found on LinkedIn and she has published an awesome book which first caught my attention, uh, and it’s a book that targets children whose parents are incarcerated. I think that’s such an important mission and such a neglected topic.
Toby Dorr: But then I started researching, uh, everything else about her and I find that she’s a certified social impact consultant and a restorative justice facilitator. So there are so many facets of Katrina that I can’t wait for us to get to know. So welcome, Katrina.
Katrina Butler: Thank you. Glad I’m here and nice to meet you.
Toby Dorr: Yes, it’s nice to meet you in person. Well, kind of in person, but we’ve been trying to set this up for a little bit. Before we get started, I’d like to, I’d like to ask everyone what their favorite color is and what that color says about them.
Katrina Butler: My favorite color is sky blue or some people would say light blue.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Katrina Butler: I fell in love with that color as a child. I used to lay on my swing and look up, stare into the sky and just see, imagine that my imagination run wild. And I just, from there, I just love the color sky blue. It, for me, it just, Yeah, it just means like newness and hope and just happiness for me.
Katrina Butler: So when I think and look at that color.
Toby Dorr: That’s so cool. And I love it when people have a specific color and it’s not just blue or red. It’s sky blue or peacock blue or teal green. You know, I just love it because colors are so important to me and I just think they say a lot about people. Um, so tell us about your book. It’s titled so far, so close and tell me how the idea for that book came about and what.
Toby Dorr: You hope to do with a book. Yes.
Katrina Butler: because I was one that was not lucky enough. to have, you know, regular visits from my Children, even regular phone calls from my Children because they had to take care of themselves. When I left, my 18 year old daughter got custody of my three younger underage Children and they were just trying to, you know, to make it through life the same way I was on the inside.
Katrina Butler: They were trying to make it through on the outside. But in my, in thinking, I said, you know, through this time of incarceration, that’s meant to separate and divide the family unit, um, take you away from it. I just valued the communication and being able to those times where I was able to have phone calls or, or they visit me like maybe like three times, but it was such, um, a blessing for them to come and visit me.
Katrina Butler: So I set my mind that. If individuals like myself, if they had the means to communicate, even though they were so far from each other, but through active communication and visitation, they can still become so much closer because they will end up growing together throughout the incarceration journey.
Toby Dorr: And, you know, I had a guest on a podcast recently and she said, when a mother is incarcerated, her children are incarcerated too. And that just stuck out to me, it’s so powerful and it’s so true. And I think, you know, prisons aren’t really designed to enhance and grow the parent connection with children.
Toby Dorr: You know, it just isn’t. And it should be, I think. In women’s prisons, there should be something better to create those relationships with children. And I don’t know what the answer is, but it’s definitely a big need.
Katrina Butler: there are some programs, but as we all know, certain programs, everyone is not privileged to them. Um, you may or you may not know about him. I found out about a program that was that would bring the Children for special visitations, um, to the facility. However, your Children have to be between a certain age and also dependent on the staff, whether that visit happened or not.
Katrina Butler: So again, the knowledge and the resources were not there, um, known to everyone for everyone to take advantage of it because it was almost like a, a secret, you know, about this organization.
Toby Dorr: that’s, that’s so sad. I think even, I mean, just at the very least, they should let you make phone calls for free to your children, because that’s the best way to keep in contact with people. You know, kids aren’t into writing letters, but hearing your voice, and there’s so many things that could be done.
Toby Dorr: And I just think, There needs to be some emphasis put on finding some solutions and getting something in place. So I love that you put this book together. Um, tell me a little bit about what the book accomplishes in telling the
Katrina Butler: Um, just that, what I said, it’s about the first book, it’s actually a three part book. Yes. So the first part is just that initial shock that this little boy and again, it has no reflection on, you know, if it’s harder for a man or harder for a woman because I, as a woman, I took it from my lived experience, but it was just put in my heart to make the character a little boy and him losing his father.
Katrina Butler: So that way I, because I felt like I can be more inclusive that way. But, um, it’s, it’s about the, the initial shock of a child losing their parent, you know, the, the mother is upset. He’s saying how his, his house is just so quiet now, you know, that void of the father’s presence. Um, he doesn’t want to play with his friends.
Katrina Butler: And then in talking to. One of his close friends, he realizes that he’s not the only one that she too was told to keep, you know, the secret of her aunt, um, her losing her aunt to incarceration, a secret. And so she just shared as a friend, she shared with him, The ways that he would still be able to see his father and communicate with his father.
Katrina Butler: And I know a lot of people we, we advocate because you have to pay and how, um, the system is capitalizing off of the communication, being able to keep healthy communication with loved ones. However, we have to do and take what we have at the time, you know, um, I wish too that it was free. I wish that they would give, you know, funds for traveling funds or, you know, things like that, especially when you do have, you know, younger children.
Katrina Butler: And even with the teenagers, I think people forget about the teenagers because they’re at a very, very pivotal point in their life. They’re trying to decide who they are in this big world as a younger adult. You know, and that’s a very, very pivotal moment. And that’s, um, where I lost my Children. Um, where they needed.
Toby Dorr: And there’s so much social pressure on teenagers, you know, peer pressures to fit in with the group and fit in with the crowd, and if there’s anything that sets you apart is a deal breaker a lot of times. You know, what kind of crowd you get accepted into. So that’s true. It is just as important for the teenagers as well.
Toby Dorr: And I hadn’t thought
Katrina Butler: Yeah. Because, you know, like my, my have twin boys and, um, you know, I thank God that they didn’t get, um, go to the streets looking for that love and that acceptance. Like we have a lot of our young You know, black and brown, um, boys that do, but ultimately they was left to take care of themselves while their older siblings were out working, you know, doing doubles and everything, trying to pay rent and all those things.
Katrina Butler: Um, so yeah, it’s, it’s very, I left them at a very, very, um, important part of their life. I miss, you know, my youngest daughter’s graduation and that hurt me. Um, especially when I heard her during a phone conversation. She says, Mom, I never thought my graduation would be this way. And yeah, it’s they go through like, like you said in the beginning, they are incarcerated in their own prison as well with dealing with their own emotions, um, trying to figure things out without, you know, the parent there.
Toby Dorr: yeah. You know, my sons were in their twenties, their early twenties when I went to prison and they never did get over it. I mean, they just, it was so embarrassing to them. And, um, and so. I hadn’t even thought about that, you know, until we were just now talking that, I mean, I realized it was difficult for them, but I, I hadn’t really thought, considered them a child, but I think in that moment they were still children and their mother was gone.
Toby Dorr: And that’s tough. That’s really tough. Yeah. We need to put more attention
Katrina Butler: know, and you know, they get traumatized as well the same way where our story doesn’t just come out in one full swoop, you know, it trauma comes out in bits and pieces here and there as things happen or things are triggered. And, you know, me just sitting back and paying attention, listen to the little bit Um, trauma pieces come out here and there.
Katrina Butler: That’s what led me to start writing the book because I wanted to give homage to their feelings and their voices as a mom. And I know a lot of people will say, well, this is your fault. You know, you did this. And yes, I take accountability for it. But then I also know that The same way, um, I have my story and my, you know, reason why I ended up, um, incarcerated due to domestic violence, but, uh, and I made a, a bad decision trying to save them.
Katrina Butler: However, I didn’t, you know, me, I, regardless of what I did, their, their voices still needs to be honored. They still need to be valued and, and their story still needs to be heard.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. I think that’s beautiful. And I, and I don’t think We give them enough voice. I love that. I love that work that you’re doing. So tell me a little bit about your, uh, I’m looking at your website here, different souls on one accord.
Katrina Butler: that was my very first organization after, um, coming home. And I believe it was my fourth job, my fourth job being, um, hired working the job for between two to four weeks and then being called and say, Oh, we have to let you go. Your background came in. Um, You know, it wasn’t, if I had been by myself, it would be one thing, but then to deliver the news to my children, that was the worst.
Katrina Butler: So I remember my, the very last time somebody, um, a job did that to me, I took my very last check and incorporated my business, different souls of one accord. Um, got the website, the logo, and it’s been existing since, you know, now. And, um, what I am, what that is, is a social impact. Um, project consultant company where I collaborate with different nonprofits and I help build programs that focus on things that I believe in, that I feel that’s going to be instrumental to the, a successful re entry for individuals.
Katrina Butler: And I also provide legal services for men on the inside as well.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, so you’re kind of like a hub, and you go out to all these, you have these different spokes of different programs so you don’t have to recreate
Katrina Butler: my lived experience, especially when you have organizations that want to help, but they don’t have the lived experience. So they call on someone like myself, and I use what I know, um, I was in, what, four different facilities during my incarceration, just for population movement. And, um, I use my experience to build programs, the infrastructure for programs that I know will communicate and speak the same language and support those coming home.
Katrina Butler: It does, especially when they.
Toby Dorr: I love that. I just love that. Um, so I think, you know, one question I like to ask is to tell us about a significant event in your life and that knocked you down, but I think we’ve covered that, you know, going to prison is definitely something that just pulls the rug out from underneath everything.
Katrina Butler: It comes from, um, a lot of harm and hurt. You know, um, I myself was a single mom and made a drastic decision to take care of my children, end up hurting them more, but I don’t think those stories, especially the victims of domestic violence being incarcerated, those are not brought to the light of how many women are inside, um, that have been victims and the tables were turned.
Katrina Butler: because nobody wanted to listen. Um, for myself, you know, when I was violated twice and I shared it with my employer, um, the first thing he said was, well, what did you do? And then when I shared it with my lawyer, my lawyer says, well, I don’t have a defense for you. And then when it came down to the judge, the judge says, well, Katrina, you’ve done amazing things in your life.
Katrina Butler: However, you may, uh, you allow somebody to make you still. And they gave me a life sentence, you know, a life, a life sentence for that. They gave
Toby Dorr: They gave you a life sentence.
Katrina Butler: told, uh, for my first ever offense, never, no misdemeanors, no anything, never getting in trouble. Um, they gave me, um, 45 years, served seven, um, and then the Georgia Coalition Against Domestic Violence, I filed an application for, um, with them.
Katrina Butler: They advocated for me and then I came home in a little less than five years.
Toby Dorr: Wow. That is an amazing story too. Just that story.
Katrina Butler: You know, it’s like you, a lot of the women. And while on the inside I was, I had different jobs, which we call, you know, the details. And the details I had was, um, teacher’s, a counselor’s, a chaplain’s aide, theology aide. But with each one of those, I was able to sit with the women, hearing their stories, encouraging them.
Katrina Butler: And I cannot tell you how many women, even though our stories are different, what led us there, but it’s a lot of it is stems from that love, you know, that toxic love or toxic behavior, or even at their hands at their own parents, you know, um, being abused and everything. And one thing led to another. So there’s a lot of women.
Katrina Butler: That’s why I advocate for maternal incarceration. Because you, you’re dividing the family unit, and then even when they get out because of resources, um, I’m not sure about other states, but I know in Georgia, they say, okay, we want the woman to just focus on her to get herself together. And they’ll, they’ll be housing for the woman when she comes home from prison, but you can’t bring your children.
Katrina Butler: So it’s constant, you’re still, you’re
Toby Dorr: Oh, divided from your child and they, you know, and I’ve had somebody even tell me when I was looking for housing, well, um, is there some place where you can, you know, send your children and then you get here and once you get yourself together, you can go back at your children.
Katrina Butler: And I’m like, listen, I’ve been away from my children all this time. I am not leaving inside. Yes.
Toby Dorr: Yes. That’s so hard. That is another gap. That is another place that we need to do a lot of work. Oh. But I think that’s so important. Um, what did you learn from being in
Katrina Butler: What didn’t I learn? I can say that because I think during that time, if your heart and mind is open, there’s a lot of time for reflection.
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Katrina Butler: And even in the times where I felt I was wrong or, you know, um, even in abusive relationships, you know. I can look at myself and say, okay, Katrina, you, you know, you didn’t do this or you should have positioned yourself this way or whatever, you know, just things that, um, listening to myself, you know, I lost my father at 14 and he was a great father.
Katrina Butler: You know, he, it wasn’t like, um, I grew up in a loving home and I saw the love of my mother and father. And when he was gone, then that part, The struggles came. So it’s just, you know, a little girl trying to find love and acceptance of that same love that her father gave her. So I can look at that and be honest with myself.
Katrina Butler: That’s the reason why, you know, part of the reason why I was in so many different toxic relationships. But I think the main thing that I was healed up of feeling unworthy. You know, yeah, when you go through abuse and even, you know, what people don’t understand a lot of times with abuse and domestic violence, it’s not like, okay, you’re out that relationship, everything is fine.
Katrina Butler: There’s still certain traits that you can find yourself going down that road, you know, certain behaviors that you can start accepting certain ways that people talk to you or treat you. that the abusive person in you would say, okay, I’m just going to take it. But as you’re healing and you’re growing, that’s where I started learning what is healthy and what is not.
Katrina Butler: And it’s okay to stand up and say, you know what, this doesn’t feel good. This, I don’t, you know, this doesn’t work for me. And you don’t have to be ugly or rude about it. You know, it’s just about having those candid conversations. And putting yourself in the best place that you can be the best part of who you are, portion of who you are.
Katrina Butler: So if I can say the main thing, I promised myself when I was inside, I said, when I come home, I’m going to be a walking example of what healthy love is. And that’s what I do. I made, I’m intentional about it. I’m intentional about being kind and being compassionate and showing empathy. Because I know the other side of that, you know, telling my children, I love them picking up the phone and say, okay, I didn’t call this person today.
Katrina Butler: Let me just see how they’re doing. I, I’m very intentional and I take that same, those same traits. And I, that’s how I work it in my business, you know, showing up through the life coaching and the peer mentor. And I show up and I make room for people in my life. So. Although they may have been, they reaching out for a mentor, they end up being family to me.
Toby Dorr: Yes. I love that. You know, I often say that I found freedom behind bars. It’s not a fun place, and I definitely will not go back. I do not want to go back. But I feel almost that, that prison stay was a blessing in my life because it really gave me an opportunity to figure out who I was and to focus on myself.
Toby Dorr: Because there’s no projects or deadlines or, you know, responsibilities or emails or anything to distract you. I mean, that is, that is the worst part of prison too, is that there’s just nothing to do. But, but you can use that time to focus on yourself and figure out what you And that, you know, I, you’re so right because even upon, um, people say, how was it when you came home? I said, when I got released, it was like somebody turned this light on to my life. You know, I was in a dark place, a dark room, and then all of a sudden somebody just came in and just switched the light on, you know, so you had to adjust your eyes and adjust, you know, uh, your senses and everything.
Katrina Butler: And, um, it was just like, okay, I’m back. I’m back as mommy. Mommy’s back. You know, I’m back in that role. But you’re right. You know, um, I know on the inside people will tell you, no, don’t focus on the outside. Don’t focus on what’s going outside. ’cause it’ll make your. time harder, but I was the opposite. I refused to adapt to the way on the inside of prison, to their food, to their language, their terms.
Katrina Butler: You know, I would, I saw so clearly of how the system was set to almost like, um, you know, to program you and to hypnotize, to hypnotize
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Doctrinating.
Katrina Butler: door, that clicking of the door, everybody stands up, you know, saying, you know, I’ll call everybody stands up, you know, at a command, you know, they hear the keys, you know, it’s just, and I’m sitting in, I’m taking in office and I said, no, I won’t, I would not make this a part of who I am.
Katrina Butler: So yeah, I did a lot of research, you know, spirit, what’s, what does spiritual love mean, you know, and, and take my time to, to, to teach myself. So not as I tell people, it’s one thing. To give love we can give love all day long that shows, you know control, but it’s a whole nother game to receive love You know, you’re not in control of
Katrina Butler: How people the type of love people give you but you’re in control To say whether that love is conducive to the healthiness of who you are
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I think that’s so true. So, um, I read that this, you’re going to publish a series of books. So next? in the book two Things are getting real for calvin the time, you know, he’s getting frustrated It Um, he’s dealing with society, his friends, of how they’re dealing with him, how they’re treating him, because people are starting to realize, and they know, and the gossip is spreading around town, that his dad’s in prison.
Katrina Butler: And that’s another thing that people don’t realize, um, even though my baby girl, you know, she lost all her friends. you know, due to be going in prison. These are things that, you know, in these, in this series, you know, I wanted to bring those raw emotions, those raw experiences that, you know, most adults, teachers, society, you know, people that interact with our children every day, they just kind of shrug their shoulder off and they, Oh, children are resilient, you know, resilient, you know, I’m saying they’re, they’ll get over it.
Katrina Butler: You know, and but no, these are traumatic things that happen because of losing their loved one to incarceration.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm. Yeah, and you don’t just get over it and it carries with you through life. So you’ve got to, you know, I feel, I feel very strongly that. You know, I can’t hide that I was in prison, so I just own it and I, I talk about it and it’s not a secret. And this weekend we took the grandkids. Well, it wasn’t this weekend.
Toby Dorr: It was Monday there on spring break. We took them to this, um, little town South of us and they had a jail there that was built in 1820 and it lasted until 1966. I mean, and this was a little jail with four rooms that they just crammed people in and so. They, we went on a tour of the jail and when we went into the little visiting, you know, the little guest room, the shop room and, and, um, we got our tickets to go on the tour and the man said, okay, now walk through this door and we’re going to show you what it’s like to be in jail.
Toby Dorr: And, and my granddaughter, who’s going to be 10 in June, she said, Oh, my grandma already she’s been to prison. She knows what it’s like. And And I just laughed, you know, and, and I was telling her parents, they said, Oh, on the tour, did you tell him you’d been in prison? And I said, no, but Lisa did. And. You know, and their first instinct was a Lisa, you don’t do.
Toby Dorr: And I said, no, no, I don’t keep it a secret. She shouldn’t have to keep it a secret either. You know, I, I think let’s talk about it. Let’s make it a part of the norm because there are so many people who know should not be a secret. And only when we open our mouths and we talk about the good, the indifference, the challenges that, you know, the laughter, you know, the cries, the loneliness, you know, the companions. That we, you know, the relationships that we built on the inside, you know, only when we talk about this, this is what builds up the story with children, I feel, that says, okay, this is not a place or this is not the path that I want to go down.
Katrina Butler: We, they have to know, they have to know, okay, the, the, the meaning of consequences. They have to be able to know choices. And even now, you know, when I have my grandbabies, if they do something that is against the rules, I tell them, I said, okay, now who chose not to follow the rule? And they’ll say, I did. I said, so since you chose not to follow the rule, what’s going to happen?
Katrina Butler: And they’ll say, I have to go to timeout. So I try to teach them that the consequences of poor choices. Um, it’s jealous, not a happy place. And even, um, they know, you know, they asked when I came home, you know, they were like, we, Mimi, we missed you so much. We miss you. And even now, you know, they’re constantly calling when did you come to get me, you know, so they know, they know both sides and so they can appreciate, you know, things that people that don’t, that keep it hush, hush, and everything they can appreciate.
Katrina Butler: family time and, and, and quality time with them. They can appreciate doing the right things in life, being responsible, making good choices, thinking about what they do before they do it. And yes. And most
Toby Dorr: I think that’s important.
Katrina Butler: think if anything, I, even with my children at the age, they are, uh, which is important to me is always being that supportive sis.
Katrina Butler: I that given them that support. I’m not the type of mom where I say, you know, you’re grown now, you’re on your own or men, men got to be men. No, they, you know, I honor and I value their feelings and their emotions because I, I feel in my experience that there was a large amount of people in prison and it stemmed that way from lack of support.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm. I think that’s so true. So, I’m curious, how long from the time you, well, how, once you went into this program for them to, uh, re evaluate your sentence, how long elapsed before
Katrina Butler: Um, I want to say I went in in 2017 Um, I reached out and got accepted into the program in 2019. I lost communication with them because of the population movement. And then when I was in the tc, I came, um, came back from to the dorm and they said, you have mail, and that was in 2020. And I saw the emblem on the envelope and I automatically knew what it was.
Katrina Butler: However, I thought that they were just telling me that they were still working on it. I didn’t have much hope, you know, I didn’t have money for lawyers and all that. So I thought they, they didn’t know where I was. So I didn’t think anything of it. But when I opened the envelope, it was actually my parole packet that they had wrote up for me.
Katrina Butler: And yeah, it’s still in there. I still didn’t know when I was going home. You know, I still didn’t know. And then, um, that January 31st, I got caught up to an office. I was only at the transitional center for 26 days and I got caught up to an office. I didn’t know the lady and I’m sitting there. She’s just typing away on her computer.
Katrina Butler: And she looked up at me and she says, you don’t, you don’t know why you’re here, do you? And I said, no. And she says, you’re going home. And yeah, and then from there, I just, I was shocked. I had all these emotions going through me and I called my daughter and I said, I’m going, I’m coming home in two days, but I didn’t tell anyone because I knew firsthand, I’ve seen so many times where people thought they were coming home.
Katrina Butler: And they got to that door, they got to intake and it didn’t happen that way. It’s something happened. And I didn’t have any, I mean, like I said, this was my very first time getting in trouble, you know, getting in trouble and everything, but I just did not trust the system. I’m like anything, they can pull up anything, you know?
Katrina Butler: Yes. So
Katrina Butler: Yeah. I didn’t, ticket from 20 years
Katrina Butler: didn’t tell
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Katrina Butler: in
Katrina Butler: fear of true. That’s true. So, if they had forwarded your mail, would you have gotten out
Katrina Butler: Um, maybe so. Because I know they work directly with the director of clemency, who’s, who’s, who I, um, also in contact with as well. So yeah, they could have, um, advocated for me. And, and if they could have found me, I don’t know how it’s just a great program. And I’m still in connection with them today. Yeah, so, um, I, I just think, I don’t, I just thank God that they did not give up on me because I, I don’t know when it, when my time, my PED came, I got denied that.
Katrina Butler: They told, yeah, and here I was doing everything, taking programs and everything. I didn’t know when I was going home. If it hadn’t been for them, you know, for God putting on their heart to not give up on me, You know, I could have still been in there. So I just thank God for them not giving up on me.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. I think that’s beautiful. Wow. Wow. That’s amazing. So, who’s been your most important
Katrina Butler: Oh, since you mean. Just ever or since coming home? Ever?
Toby Dorr: ever, in your mind?
Katrina Butler: Oh,
Katrina Butler: most definitely my dad. your biggest mentor?
Katrina Butler: Yeah, yes, my dad, my dad. Um, my mom worked swing shift. So because of her work schedule, a lot of times we were either missing her going home or we were asleep when she came, when she left out. So, um, my dad was there a lot. So it was just a lot of memories, a lot of fun times, you know. You know, being as a little girl, being on the street with my friends, I was, um, always surrounded by my no.
Katrina Butler: nephews and cousins and brothers. So I always had a lot, a lot of protection around me. And my dad was, he was always good with his hands. So whatever he couldn’t afford, he built it. He birthed us a life life. Um, so Um, Barbie doll house that was life size. Yeah, so we had, we had the,
Toby Dorr: Oh wow.
Katrina Butler: it and, and chairs to go in and sit, you know.
Katrina Butler: So, it was just things like that and just listening to his wisdom and things that he said. Um, you know, even right now that I hold dear to my heart.
Toby Dorr: think that’s beautiful.
Katrina Butler: really are. They very, they really are.
Toby Dorr: sure. Yeah. So what’s one question you wish I’d asked that I
Katrina Butler: you know what, Toby? I don’t know. What’s one question?
Toby Dorr: there something else you’d like to share that we haven’t talked
Katrina Butler: No, I just would say One thing, you know, and again, it’s with my work, you know, with women, um, our first love, I know it’s cliche when they say you have to love yourself first, but it’s so important and that you don’t have to be masculine. You don’t have to be alpha. You don’t have to put any term on it, you know, just appreciate who you are, your size, your shape, your eyes, your lips, whatever it is, anything about yourself and tell yourself every day in the morning, You know, that you are beautiful, you know, um, just to believe that, you know, we’re not for everyone, but we, there is people out there in this world that we are for.
Katrina Butler: Right. Right.
Toby Dorr: love that. And that is so true. You know, my husband now, uh, when we first met, he told me, Toby, you have to fix yourself before you can fix anything else. I mean, you’re of no use to anybody if you’re a mess. So you, so you have to work on yourself and it’s really not a selfish thing. It’s a, it’s, what releases us to be able to do the work that we do.
Toby Dorr: You know, we have to be in a mind And that our minds, you know, even with us, you know, doing this work is, and I had to learn this. My mind is not going to work the same way someone else’s mind is, you know, the way how I see things is not going to be the same way how someone else sees things. Right. And so I have to stay true to who I am.
Katrina Butler: My, the way how my organization is ran and put together is the way that God has gave to me to put it, to run it that way. And I think in this world, you know, regardless of women, men, whatever, we always, you know, we’re always comparing ourselves, you know, even down, we see all the amazing work on LinkedIn and all these great You know, and I had to tell myself, you know, what God has for them is what God has for them.
Katrina Butler: But that doesn’t mean it’s for me. And sometimes I have to fall back from it. So I don’t get, you know, distracted by my plan and my purpose in life, you know, because that’s who I am. That’s the core of who I am. And I, And that’s another, you know, lesson from prison. You know, I have to stay true to who I am, regardless if that means that I’m going to stay by my, be standing by myself.
Katrina Butler: I have to stay true to who I am.
Toby Dorr: I love that. I love that. Um,
Katrina Butler: Well,
Toby Dorr: is there learn when you were in prison? me? Oh man, I learned so much, but um, really what I learned in prison is that I’m good enough, just as I am, you know, I’m, I’m okay. And being in prison is not who I was. But who I came out, who I was when I came out of prison is who
Katrina Butler: Right, right. And I say that too, God had to do something drastic for us to get back to ourselves. Yes.
Toby Dorr: Yes. Yes. Yes. I like that. That’s so true. That’s so true. So what’s one word that inspires you?
Katrina Butler: I have to go back to what I always say is love, love, love. It’s, and people think about it has to be something intimate and for me it doesn’t. It’s it, love is kindness, love is caring, love is, you know, to take time for people, listen to people being there for people, you know, it’s the universal language and I hold onto that all the time.
Katrina Butler: Even on my, you know, when I. speak to people or when I’m making posts on my social media, I always end it with love all the time. It’s a trigger word for me and it reminds me of a higher power.
Toby Dorr: And it is, it is truly at the root of everything. Love is at the root of everything. sharing with someone. It’s at the root of being empathetic. It’s at the root of helping someone. It’s at Right. It’s a very simple word. We
Toby Dorr: of
Katrina Butler: it.
Toby Dorr: I and I think we cheapen it to by making it about only a
Katrina Butler: And it does it. I wrote a story and I said, what? I wonder what it would look like if everyone that I came that I encounter, I would say, thank you. I love you. Thank you. I love you. How would they, how would they look at me? So that crazy like,
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Katrina Butler: you know, but that’s how I, that’s how I feel. You know, I love, you know, people.
Katrina Butler: And even when they disappoint, you know, I still walk in love. I still, you You know, I am loving, I know how to separate it.
Toby Dorr: I like that. And you know, after I got out of prison, I mean, I would tell my mom all the time, I love you. Every time I’d talk to her and we’d leave, I’d say, I love you, mom. And you know, I say that to my grandkids now and
Katrina Butler: Yes.
Toby Dorr: all those years, I didn’t say it. I mean, I was so busy and you know, we just hurried and rushed out and I didn’t ever take the time to say, I love you.
Katrina Butler: we, as women, I, I couldn’t have tested that same story. I woke up one day and I was just like, I don’t, I haven’t hugged my children. I don’t know how long ago, nor have I told him I love them. And this is way before prison, you know, life was just so fast and has so much going on and I literally had to make myself get into a habit of saying that.
Katrina Butler: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: yes,
Katrina Butler: Yes.
Toby Dorr: I think it is important and it is powerful. That’s for sure. So, Katrina, thank you so much for being on with us today. I think you have such a powerful story. I didn’t even know half of the story until we talked today and I’m even more impressed now than I was when I first reached out. So Most.
Toby Dorr: stay
Katrina Butler: Yes. I got some ideas already for we got to chat about. So
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Katrina Butler: yes, most definitely.
Toby Dorr: Yes, definitely. Let’s do. Let’s do.
Katrina Butler: You’re welcome.
Toby Dorr: you, Katrina. I’m so glad to have you on the show.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for joining me on Fierce Conversations with Toby. Your support and listening means so much to me, and I hope today’s conversation makes a difference in your world. If you would like to support this podcast, there are many ways to do so. I found these ways tend to help the most in getting our message out into the world.
Toby Dorr: Number one, subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen to, or watch this podcast. If you can leave a five star rating or a like on this episode on YouTube, that helps even more. And if you leave a comment or a review, that helps the most. The next way you can support Fierce Conversations with Toby is to join our Patreon at patreon.
Toby Dorr: com slash fierce conversations. All tiers come with a downloadable digital gratitude journal created by me and membership in a private Facebook group that I also lead. Most importantly, 10 percent of all proceeds from your subscription will go directly to donating my workbooks to women in prison.
Toby Dorr: Finally, sharing the link to this show with your friends, family, and anyone who wants to listen is appreciated more than I can say. Thank you again for joining me today and supporting this show by listening to it and sharing it with friends. Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Dorr, produced by Number 3 Productions.
Toby Dorr: The theme song that you’re hearing now, Groovin was composed and arranged by Lisa Plass. Lisa also plays the flute for the theme with Carolyn Parody on piano and Tony Ventura on bass. Find out more at tobydore. com. This is Fierce Conversations with Toby. Escape your prison.
