Toby Dorr: Welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby, the podcast where we dive deep into the art of overcoming. Here, we share powerful stories that ignite healing and inspire profound transformations in your own journey. I’m Toby Dorr, and together we’ll explore the resilience, courage, and fierce determination that turn life’s challenges into stepping stones for growth.
Toby Dorr: Let’s begin this transformative journey together.
Toby Dorr: Welcome back to Fierce Conversations with Toby. My guest today is Jackie Stuckey. who has a book out called Restoring the Southpaw. And she, uh, is a professional counselor. She’s a published author and a passionate mental health advocate. So I’m really looking forward to our conversation today with Jackie.
Toby Dorr: Welcome.
Jackie Stuckey: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Toby.
Toby Dorr: It’s my pleasure. We met in kind of a, I try to remember how I meet everybody. So, um, my publisher, I think gave you my, gave you my name to call. So, and I thought you were calling about something else and I was going down a tangent and they were like, well, I want to talk about your podcast. Like, oh yeah.
Toby Dorr: Okay. Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: to know what my publishing process was like. So I assumed it was just a mass email to all of her because she helped me publish my book.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: So I saw your name and I, and it said you had a podcast and I thought, well, I’m really interested in doing one myself.
Toby Dorr: I think that is a perfect fit. So I’m so glad to have you here. Before we really get started into the real conversation, what’s your favorite color and what do you think it says about you?
Jackie Stuckey: Well, I don’t have a favorite color. I mean, when I was a teenager, I used to like the color blue,
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: but now I just like bright colors.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: I just, you know, I like the room to be nice and bright with
Toby Dorr: Yes. I can relate to that. I’m not much of a pastel person. I like those bold jewel tones.
Jackie Stuckey: Right. Okay.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Pretty cool. So Jackie, what’s the hardest decision you’ve ever had to make?
Jackie Stuckey: Okay. I only get to choose one.
Toby Dorr: Well, or you can just choose the one you want to talk about whatever comes to the top.
Jackie Stuckey: Well, I, okay. So the first one that comes to mind is, um, to quit drinking
Toby Dorr: Ah
Jackie Stuckey: in my
Toby Dorr: a tough one.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes. In my early twenties. So it was very difficult to do that. I had three, my children was, were, they were small, you know, they were toddlers.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: I wanted to stop, but I didn’t know how, because I was surrounded by, you know, people who drank and nobody was interested in stopping and I couldn’t get advice.
Jackie Stuckey: From anybody. So it was really hard for me to, um, make the decision I wanted to, because, you know, there were days when, you know, I, I always told myself, I’m going to stop,
Toby Dorr: Mm
Jackie Stuckey: know, binge the night before. Um, I’m going to stop, but then I would always start
Toby Dorr: Yeah, that’s a that’s a tough one To quit and you know, there was alcoholism in my family with my grandfathers and I had this unbelievable wisdom when I was in high school that I felt like if I started drinking, I would just be gone. And so I never drank. I just never picked up a drink. And you know, my husband today and his mom was an alcoholic and was really big in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Toby Dorr: And he tells me, he says, Toby, you’re an alcoholic. You’ve just never drunk, but you’re an alcoholic. And so I think, you know, whatever steered me in that direction to know enough to not pick up a drink for one time was a blessing because that’s a tough thing to get over.
Jackie Stuckey: It is.
Toby Dorr: It’s probably one of the hardest things, I think, because it’s so everywhere.
Toby Dorr: You know, people go out to a restaurant. No, just have a drink. Well, you know, that just, it causes trouble when you’re trying to quit. So
Jackie Stuckey: Yeah, you’re right.
Toby Dorr: a lot of courage to do that and a lot of determination. So that’s
Jackie Stuckey: And prayer. Yes.
Toby Dorr: a part of it all. I think that was probably an answer. To an unanswered prayer telling me in high school, don’t pick up a, don’t pick that up.
Toby Dorr: Don’t even try it. So, yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: Good for you.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I’m, I’m relieved because I had enough to deal with. I didn’t have to add that to the mix. So, , so tell us about a significant event in your life that knocked you down and how did you pick yourself up?
Jackie Stuckey: Um, well, again, I’m going to go back to my younger years when I came and, um, you know, my, my life was very chaotic and, you know, I dropped out of high school. Well, I flunked out because I was skipping school. I was pretty smart, but I just, you know, family life was troubled. And so, so I had a hard time. You know, going on, moving on with my life and everything.
Jackie Stuckey: And, um, so I got into, I was in a domestic violence situation. So I’m a survivor. Um, and that was really hard to deal with. So I was in two situations. I married two men who were, um, you know, violent. And not only that, they were addicts. The second husband was an addict and it kept setting me back. Every time he would use, you know, he would run away from the house.
Jackie Stuckey: Um, he would steal from the house, steal from me. Um, and I was working on my undergraduate at the time. And so it’s very difficult to go to school when you don’t know where your husband is, or if he’s dead or alive, or,
Toby Dorr: Yeah. And I think, you know, that’s one of the things I love about the difficult journeys is because. It’s really where you build the character. And if you just have a perfect life with no, nothing to worry about, I mean, you really don’t come out that strong of a person.
Jackie Stuckey: Right.
Toby Dorr: So I think all that, I can’t imagine having young kids and having to worry about your husband when you’re trying to worry about yourself and go to school.
Toby Dorr: That’s a lot, takes a lot of commitment. Mm
Jackie Stuckey: that’s true. And at the time I was going through, when I stopped drinking at the age of 25, so I started developing mental health issues
Toby Dorr: hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: because of it. So I was still dealing, I was dealing with my mental health issues while trying to raise my children while trying to be in a marriage. And it was very difficult when you are agoraphobic.
Jackie Stuckey: And you can’t go outside and you can’t be alone. And so that, that transformation was extremely difficult for me.
Toby Dorr: So how did you find your way through that?
Jackie Stuckey: Um, well, the first husband that I had, um, although we had no business being together, I needed him at the time.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: He helped. He helped a lot. You know, he was there taking care of the kids and they he’s not the father of my Children, but he was there to help me whenever I would have a panic attack,
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: freaking out.
Jackie Stuckey: You know, he was there to go to the grocery store with me, you know, to help out when I couldn’t.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: Because I was, I was, um, having all these different types of phobias that emerged. Um, and I didn’t know what was happening to me. So it was a crazy time.
Toby Dorr: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds very chaotic.
Jackie Stuckey: It was,
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: but I was determined to reach my goals. I was working on my GED at the time. And so it was very difficult when you can’t go outside and you know,
Toby Dorr: how did you find your way through that trauma? Create something positive. What was it that kept you reaching for that?
Jackie Stuckey: well, determination and prayer, because it was God who heard my cry when I was Drinking and down. Um, I, and I didn’t know how to stop, you know, no earthly measures could help me. I mean, my limitations couldn’t. So I remember praying one night, uh, actually it was one day, uh, for God to take my life because I just couldn’t continue on that way.
Jackie Stuckey: But once I moved from Indiana here with all my mental health issues, I found a therapist.
Toby Dorr: And that’s a game changer.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes. And he uses exposed, she used exposure therapy. To help me, uh,
Toby Dorr: I haven’t heard about that. What is that exposure therapy?
Jackie Stuckey: well, the very things that I was afraid of. She exposed me to, um, a little bit at a time.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: go outside. I couldn’t catch the, the, the city bus alone. ’cause I didn’t have a vehicle. I couldn’t be alone. So she gave me homework assignments.
Toby Dorr: Wow.
Jackie Stuckey: Yeah. I want you to get, I want you to take the bus and I want you to take the bus to my office.
Toby Dorr: Wow.
Jackie Stuckey: And by that time during my treatment, I had, we had acquired a car and she said, don’t have your husband drive you. I want you to take the bus to come and see me. Well, right then and there, I decided therapy is not for me. I’m never coming back. I cannot do this,
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: but I did it.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can’t really get through something unless you face it head on and go through it,
Jackie Stuckey: That’s true. That is true.
Toby Dorr: but she gave you a safe environment in which to do it. So you didn’t have to just step out there and think, I’m just going to do this. She, she told you to do it and you trusted her. So you had to believe that she knew that you could do it
Jackie Stuckey: Yeah. She believes.
Toby Dorr: you had a purpose for it because you were coming to see her.
Toby Dorr: So,
Jackie Stuckey: true. He had more faith than I did. That’s for sure.
Toby Dorr: Counselors just are miracle workers as far as I’m concerned. I, I just, I spent a lot of years, a lot of time in therapy and, and it, it changed my life. You know, it, it just made me not afraid anymore.
Jackie Stuckey: Right. It’s helpful if you use it, if you want it. Yes.
Toby Dorr: Who’s been your most important mentor?
Jackie Stuckey: Um, there have been a lot. Um, I, I guess
Toby Dorr: us more than one if you want.
Jackie Stuckey: Um, so, ooh, ooh, mentor. So, so let’s see, when I was in school, um, working on my undergraduate, you know, there were professors. Advisors, um, to help me along the way. Um, one in particular, uh, his name is Dr. Nelson. He helped me get started with my book as an independent study. I took a class
Toby Dorr: Oh,
Jackie Stuckey: in the study and he was like, well, what do you want to do?
Jackie Stuckey: I’m like, I don’t know. Like, cause I’m like, do you have any homework for me? He’s like, well, what do you want to do? I’m like, well, I’m writing the book and I need some guidance. And so he helped me, um, you know, hone in on the direction. that because I was all over the place.
Toby Dorr: yes, yes, I can relate to that. And, and I, especially, you know, I think your book is a lot like mine. It’s really personal and talks about some difficult things. And when you’re writing about them. you tend to get lost back in them again and you need someone to kind of Say no, let’s go this way or let’s you know, you can leave that alone now because you’ve already done that It’s pretty helpful to have someone I I love the idea of putting a book in your independent study classes.
Toby Dorr: That’s a great Topic because I think everybody has a story to tell and telling that story is healing But it also sharing that story with other people can extend grace to them as well, so that they believe they can heal too.
Jackie Stuckey: Right. You’re right. You’re right.
Toby Dorr: It’s pretty
Jackie Stuckey: you for some spiritual, um, like when I’m going to church, um, the pastor and the first lady, they were our mentors, you know, and that’s what really helped me develop. Uh, spiritually and as a whole person because, you know, I was going through marital problems at the time, um, mental issues still.
Jackie Stuckey: And so they really helped to guide not only me, but you know, the congregation as a whole.
Toby Dorr: I love that. I love that. And I think, you know, finding a church that works for you when you’re going through something traumatic gives you that community that you really need. You’ve got to have a community surrounding you that helps lift you up. On the days when you’re down.
Jackie Stuckey: Right. That’s true.
Toby Dorr: I found that when I was in prison, you know, the women I was in prison with, we were all at our lowest point, but on any given day, one of us would be lower than the rest.
Toby Dorr: And we could lift them up and we could relate because we’re all stuck there together. And then on another day I might be the one who was able to lift someone else up because nobody could relate to what we were going through unless you were going through it.
Jackie Stuckey: Right.
Toby Dorr: So
Jackie Stuckey: Was that a lonely existence? Was that a lonely existence for you in the beginning? Right,
Toby Dorr: You know, I was the oldest of seven children and we were a busy family and we were loud, you know, and even my husband, my current husband, when he went to our first family event, he’s like, he was an only child. He’s like, how can you guys. function. Everybody’s talking and there’s like five conversations going on in the same room and you’re in this one conversation and you’re talking and all of a sudden you’ll stop and you’ll interject something into another conversation and how can you, how can you deal with all that?
Toby Dorr: And so I was never in a situation in my life where I was alone until I went to prison. And. I didn’t think I could do it. And then I found out that I loved it. I love just being with myself because I could listen to my own thoughts and I could, you know, figure out who I was. And it was so powerful. I eventually came to think that, you know, I found my freedom behind bars and it was just because I had the time to get to know me. And it was a blessing. I’m not going back. Don’t want to do it again. Hardest I’ve ever done. But, but it was a blessing. It truly was a blessing.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes. Yep. I understand that. I understand blessings in disguise.
Toby Dorr: Yes. And so many of the best blessings come in disguise. You know, you think you’re facing one thing and you end up in this whole different direction that you would never would have got to if you hadn’t had that obstacle in your way.
Jackie Stuckey: That is true.
Toby Dorr: I love that. So what’s a turning point in your life that propelled you in a different direction?
Toby Dorr: You thought you were headed one way and then all of a sudden, zooped off. You were in another path. Okay.
Jackie Stuckey: I had applied to one university and I didn’t get in because one of my letters of recommendation didn’t make it before the cutoff time. And I tried and tried and tried. And then, um, someone told me about an MSW, um, degree. And I thought that’s what I wanted to do, social work.
Jackie Stuckey: You go to this university over here. So as I talked to the enrollment specialist and it’s a Christian university, Colorado Christian university, um, she made me feel so welcome. So at ease. Um, and I ended up getting into the counseling program because I wanted to be a counselor. But then I was torn. You know, I thought, you know, am I gonna be able to use this anywhere?
Jackie Stuckey: But that was my passion. I wanted to be a counselor. I wanted to give back. And so, because she made the enrollment process so comfortable for me, Uh, it seems like God just opened up the doors for me.
Jackie Stuckey: You know,
Toby Dorr: Yeah,
Toby Dorr: I love it when you’re doing work that doesn’t even feel like work because I’d be doing this anyway If I was just sitting around because I love it so much
Jackie Stuckey: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That was the turning point for me. When I got into graduate school, it seemed like, whereas the other university was giving me such a hard time. I had to take all these stupid, um, tests like the GRE and
Toby Dorr: Yes
Jackie Stuckey: analogies test. Those don’t mean anything. And then I go over to this Christian university and I apply, I get interviewed and I get accepted.
Jackie Stuckey: And
Toby Dorr: Yeah, yeah, because they wanted to get to know you as a person They didn’t care about how well you did on a test and some people just don’t do well on tests And, and if you exclude someone because of a poor test score, you might’ve excluded Einstein, you know, I bet he didn’t do great on tests either. So,
Jackie Stuckey: exactly. You want to hear something interesting. I was at one point enrolled at the vocational rehab, um, place
Toby Dorr: uh, huh.
Jackie Stuckey: And that’s when I was still, um, I had gotten my bachelor’s degree and I was trying to find the funding to go get my master’s right. So they were like, well, you don’t need a master’s to counsel people.
Jackie Stuckey: And plus, this is what they said. You don’t have the ability to succeed in a master’s program, in a graduate program. That’s what they told me.
Toby Dorr: Wow.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes. And I thought, wow.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: So the turning point was when I was accepted and it was one of the best experiences, um, you know, attending my cohort, you know, in my master’s program and also now working with clients. Helping them along the way, but
Toby Dorr: going to school. It is one of my favorite things to do. And I keep thinking I’m going to check and see if the universe, some universities in some states offer free classes when you get to a certain age. And, and I think I might just. Check it out and take something. I just love to go to school. And when I met my husband, I had two bachelor’s degrees and he would go places and introduces, and he’d say, this is my wife.
Toby Dorr: She’s the educated one. And I got so tired of hearing that. And so one day I went on the computer and I filled out a FAFSA form for him. And I told him, you are enrolled at the community college. Just go pick out the classes you want to take. He’s like, what? I said, you’re going to college too. And he said, okay.
Toby Dorr: So he went and he got his bachelor’s degree. And while he was going to school, I thought, you know, I miss school. He’s doing all this homework and projects. So I enrolled in a master’s degree program. And then he got his bachelor’s degree and he started saying, saying this is my wife. She’s the really educated one.
Toby Dorr: She’s got a master’s degree. And so I said, Chris, guess what? You’re going to get a master’s degree. And he did. And he’s like, I guess he’s learned not to tell me what he isn’t anymore.
Jackie Stuckey: that’s great though. You can talk education, you know.
Toby Dorr: Yes, yes, yes. I just love it. And you know, I’m working on putting together some courses to help women with some foundational development type stuff. And, and I love school so much that it’s so exciting to me, be able to put a course together. I really am looking forward to that.
Jackie Stuckey: Well, good luck with that. I would love to hear how that works out.
Toby Dorr: Yes, I’ll definitely keep you in the loop because I’m really excited about it.
Toby Dorr: So, has there ever been a time in your life when you felt imprisoned? And what did you do to break free?
Jackie Stuckey: Uh, yes. Uh, growing up, um, you know, dealing with lots of trauma, um, and, uh. You, you, we were, I was raised in a culture where you, you know, you didn’t tell about the bad things,
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Jackie Stuckey: I’ll never understand that, that, that way of thinking. I mean, I understand it. You know what I mean? I understand it. It’s like, you know, keep what goes on in this house.
Toby Dorr: In this house. Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: And then if you talk to the elders back then, um, they’re like, well, you know, your parents are doing the best they can sort of thing. And don’t say anything, you know? So I felt like, where do you go? Where do you go for help? How do I, how do I evolve? How do I free from whatever this dysfunction is? How do I,
Toby Dorr: I think it’s kind of a generational curse. It’s it’s what you know, your parents were raised in and their parents before them. And there has to be somebody in that cycle that breaks free and says, I’m going to do this different and kind of breaks out of that. Whatever’s kept people locked because it is generational, you know, if your family’s poor or uneducated and you’re born into the family and it takes a lot for you to break free and not be poor and uneducated because the role models you have aren’t that.
Jackie Stuckey: that’s true. That’s very true. And when I was, when I wanted to write my book, of course I had to, uh, expose certain unpleasantries
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Jackie Stuckey: like abuse and alcoholism and incarceration. I mean, those things like, nope, that’s not normal.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: People shouldn’t experience those things in their life. And, but, you know, I had some backlash, not so much backlash.
Jackie Stuckey: My oldest brother, when I wrote the first chapter and I let him read it and I was talking about our parents, he, I think he felt the type of way about it.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: I don’t think he wanted me to talk about it, but it was my story.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: Like I was compelled to tell my story my way.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: So,
Toby Dorr: know, and I think talking about it is where the healing starts. Because if you can’t talk about it, well you can’t heal from it because you can’t even acknowledge it to know you need to heal from it.
Jackie Stuckey: That is true. That is, you know, I see so often with my clients that, you know, this thing called shame
Toby Dorr: Oh yes.
Jackie Stuckey: victims of sexual abuse or physical abuse, for some reason, they internalize that and they take ownership of the perpetrators garbage and they carry that with
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: You know, they, it’s not their burdens to carry, but you see, that’s how shame operates.
Jackie Stuckey: It hides in the dark and it tells you you can’t talk to anybody about these things. But you can. And once you start talking about shame, when you expose it, but of course you have to have a safe space to do
Toby Dorr: Yes, you do.
Jackie Stuckey: Then, as you said, the healing can begin.
Toby Dorr: know, one of the courses that I teach is called slaying your shame dragon. And I really think as women, we take on so much shame that really isn’t even ours to take on.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes.
Toby Dorr: And my story was so high profile and I was on the, News and on the newspapers all the time. And of course, when somebody does something wrong, when they’ve slipped and really gone off out of the realm of normalness,
Jackie Stuckey: Right.
Toby Dorr: the media loves to grab it and tear into it and just make it as salacious as possible.
Toby Dorr: And so when I saw myself in those news stories or in those newspaper headlines, I couldn’t love that person because that was really a messed up person. And so. I couldn’t deal with that shame because I couldn’t grab hold of it. I couldn’t, you know, it was just so cloudy. Just what didn’t have a form. And so I started imagining shame as this dragon with these gnarly teeth and this nasty breath and this spiked tail that when you think you’re going along just fine, that tail swings and hits you in the chest and knocks you off track again.
Toby Dorr: And when I saw that shame as a dragon, then I could see myself with a sword slaying that dragon.
Jackie Stuckey: Right. Exactly.
Toby Dorr: And that’s what I had to do to, you know, move on past it. And I’ve learned since that, you know, I thought, Oh great, I’ve done this. I’ve let go of that shame. But then every once in a while, I’ll get a comment on a social media that, really hurts, really gets to the core of my woundedness.
Toby Dorr: And I start to go, Oh, I really am a terrible person. And then I go, Nope, stop, stop, get away. And I have to go back and slay the shame dragon all over again.
Jackie Stuckey: You do. Yes. Yes. Yes. I like that. I
Toby Dorr: Yeah. It just really made it physical for me and substantial and with form something that I could see and push and it made all the difference in the world.
Jackie Stuckey: right. Well, good for you.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: And more women need to hear what you just, they need to, they need to hear that because you know, there’s so many guilt ridden shame riddled people out there that they’re just carrying these burdens and they don’t know how to heal from these things.
Toby Dorr: it’s their fault that they, you know, can’t cook or whatever it is, but it’s not. And it’s not even true. It’s just what someone tells you because they’ve got their own issues to deal with. And so they reach out to make you feel bad so that they can feel better.
Jackie Stuckey: Right. So can
Toby Dorr: has nothing to do with you.
Jackie Stuckey: I ask you a question? You said every once in a while you’ll see a comment on social media that hurts. Um, Like, how, like, does that still hurt? What, what do you do to, you know,
Toby Dorr: hurts, you know, I’ve gotten so much better at it. So like recently I got a, oh, someone commented on my book on a post I put out there and they said, this is a tremendous story. This woman had so much bravery and courage to face, you know, whatever. And then somebody replied and said, I don’t understand.
Toby Dorr: What you see, because what I see is a woman who embarrassed her husband and her sons and was a spoiled brat and did something that would make her feel better. And I, you know, and I started to think, Oh gosh, and, but then my thought immediately was, and this is how I know I’m really coming through it. I said, I’m so sorry for you, whoever you are that wrote this because you’re hurting and, and that’s not a place I want to be.
Toby Dorr: And I could just let go of it, but it’s taken a while to get there.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes, you know, redemption is, the theme of redemption is lacking in many respects,
Toby Dorr: It certainly is.
Jackie Stuckey: you know, condemnation was always the thing. Like that lady said, she, she didn’t understand. Okay. Well, as long as you’re in this human body, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re not
Toby Dorr: Yes. Yes. And I really think social media has brought out the worst in all of us because people will say things without thinking what they’re saying. They’ll say things that they would never say to a person in face to face. And it’s just given us a tool to be bitter and petty
Jackie Stuckey: And vicious
Toby Dorr: it. Yes.
Toby Dorr: Yes. Horribly vision. Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: Exactly.
Toby Dorr: And I, it just drives me crazy. You know, people go out and they take their camera and they try to find places where people are out of control and they call them Karens and put it on there. And it’s like, what about all the beautiful women whose name is Karen, you know?
Toby Dorr: What are you doing here? And why do I want to watch this?
Toby Dorr: It just, yeah. It just, something needs to change. So, I like that. Yeah, so what’s one question you wish I’d asked you something you’d like to share that we haven’t even touched on.
Jackie Stuckey: Let’s see. I don’t know. Um, maybe about, uh, more like. More things. Well, maybe one thing about my book. One of the things that I talk about the theme in my book, the theme of hope.
Toby Dorr: I love that hope such a powerful word.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes. So that’s the message that I, um, wanted to convey throughout my book, uh, that though you may be going through trials and tribulations in your life, you know, if you have goals you’re trying to attain, you can do it because I, if I can do it and I, and I sorely lack the resources, there’s, the wherewithal, the mental capacity to do these things.
Jackie Stuckey: People, you know, who possess, you know, seemingly possessing more resources can achieve their goals as well. Um, and they shouldn’t be afraid to talk about the tough, scary, unpleasant issues, you know, to me, like I said, incarceration, I was the, well, I was the wife of two inmates.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: I was incarcerated myself for like eight days,
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: twenties, because I lost custody of my children when they were toddlers. Um, and so, um, mental health issues, when you’re going through it, you know, being abused by your significant other, we need to talk about those things. We
Toby Dorr: We do need to talk about them because they shouldn’t be hidden. Because when they are hidden, it’s just like, you know, not taking care of a wound. Then it festers and gets infected and it spreads. But you have to bring them out into the open and talk about them to move past them.
Jackie Stuckey: Right. That’s true. And I don’t like the fact that I think I asked you in our previous phone conversation about whether people have said your book was
Toby Dorr: Right, right. You did ask that. Mm
Jackie Stuckey: was described as kind of dark, you know what I mean? But it’s not dark. Uh, I mean, you know what I’m saying?
Toby Dorr: it’s not dark if it’s filled with hope.
Jackie Stuckey: Right.
Toby Dorr: People just have to see the hope. They have to open their eyes to the light and to the silver linings in a story.
Jackie Stuckey: And they have to open their eyes to the very issues that are very real in front of them.
Toby Dorr: Yes, because they are true. They are out there. You can look anywhere in any city and you’re going to find all that. And if you keep it hidden, then children grow up in homes where they feel like they can’t talk about their home life like you had. And it, it just doesn’t prepare them to break free as an adult and, and go out into the world and make a difference.
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Jackie Stuckey: if we are silent?
Toby Dorr: It lets them get away with it.
Jackie Stuckey: Exactly.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, yeah, that’s pretty powerful. I haven’t read your book yet, but I’m going to and I’m looking here at your author bio and I see that you learned American Sign Language and are an instructor and an interpreter and I think that’s beautiful.
Jackie Stuckey: Thank you. I don’t do it so much anymore. Um, I do have a deaf sister. I had a deaf cousin. She passed away. Um, but my arthritis, you know,
Toby Dorr: Yes, that would be hard.
Jackie Stuckey: Oh my goodness made it so difficult.
Toby Dorr: I have trouble doing anything with my hands, but when I had the prison dog program, I had a volunteer who was deaf. And so I learned enough sign language to communicate with her. And I just thought it was so cool. And my oldest son is hearing impaired. He’s worn hearing aids his whole life.
Toby Dorr: He never did learn sign language, but he read lips. And, but I just think that there’s. The Deaf community is just beautiful, and I think they’re so aware of things, and Gallaudet University’s, you know, we live outside of D. C., and we’ve driven up there on the campus, you know, just to be there, because I think, I think there’s something really special about Deaf people.
Toby Dorr: I don’t know what it is, but I think they have a, Well, when you’re not distracted by everything going on around you, all this stuff bombarding you, maybe you notice things that we don’t pay attention to because there’s just too much sound to distract us. I mean,
Jackie Stuckey: Well, it’s a beautiful, it’s a beautiful language.
Toby Dorr: yes, it is.
Jackie Stuckey: beautiful
Toby Dorr: And I love how everything you watch on TV now, you know, they’ve got interpreters and I just think that’s so beautiful. When I was a girl, a friend of our family’s was my same age and she was deaf. And we played with her and I don’t know how we communicated. She didn’t do sign language. Maybe she learned it later, but she was so isolated, you know, some of the things that we’d take her and go do.
Toby Dorr: And she just was, what is this? You know? And I think her parents, because she was deaf, they really sheltered her and, and protected her.
Jackie Stuckey: right.
Toby Dorr: They didn’t let her out into the world to experience it. And I don’t know. It just seems. It just seems sad. I think how sometimes they’re just cut off from so many things and sign language really gave them that avenue to get back involved.
Toby Dorr: And
Jackie Stuckey: Yes. It’s interesting that you said that because my sister has been basically adopted into our family. They were neighbors across the street from us.
Toby Dorr: uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: She lived with her mom and her grandmother and her aunt. And, uh, she, of course, she lost her hearing at the age of three. And that’s when she went to the school for the deaf and blind.
Jackie Stuckey: But when she’s around us, when deaf people are around hearing people, they don’t, of course they don’t speak their language because we don’t know it. And so she create home signs,
Toby Dorr: Uh huh.
Jackie Stuckey: makeup signs so that we can, she can read lips. So yeah. And if you learn their language, wow, they love you, you know, because
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: you taking the time to
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: know them.
Toby Dorr: I think it’s beautiful and I really think, you know, maybe we should be teaching it in our grade schools. I, I think people should know it. It shouldn’t be like a wonder to find someone that can communicate with the deaf because they’re everywhere. They’re around us and they shouldn’t be so cut off.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes. Just like Spanish is a requirement. And I guess, you know, American sign language should be too.
Toby Dorr: I think it should, I think, really think it should. And I think the kids would love it. So, we live with our grandkids here, they live upstairs, we live down in the walkout basement and I think I’m gonna start working with that with my grandkids and I, I need to learn that. Yeah. I
Jackie Stuckey: my kids found my granddaughter. She’s seven. So she found one of my sign language books in my bookshelf here last. And so my, my grant there, so they were interested. Grandma, what are these signs? I mean, what are they saying? What are they doing with their hands? So I, that I would teach them.
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Jackie Stuckey: I’m going to teach them how
Toby Dorr: Yeah. I think that’s beautiful. I think that’s just beautiful. Have you ever, by chance, counseled someone who’s deaf?
Jackie Stuckey: I have. Yes, I had one client. Um, I started counseling with him and then I got COVID. And so, um, I, I just could not, um,
Toby Dorr: Because, you know, when I sit and think about it, there’s so many services they are cut off from because I bet it’s hard to find a counselor that can sign it. It just. Yeah, I do think we should integrate that a lot more into our society.
Jackie Stuckey: Yep. They, they, they definitely need counseling. That’s for
Toby Dorr: I love that. I really love that. So what’s one question you’d like to ask me?
Jackie Stuckey: Okay. Um, Hmm. I think I’ve asked the questions.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, we had talked for quite a bit.
Jackie Stuckey: about how, when did you, how did you meet your husband? Was
Toby Dorr: I lived in Kansas city and I My crime, everybody knew me. I’d go in a restaurant to eat and they’d all be pointing at me. Kansas city is a big town where everybody knows everybody. So everybody knows your business. And, um, so I took a job in Boston and this guy hired me to build a website for him and I moved to Boston and I was excited.
Toby Dorr: I’d never lived, I’d lived my whole life in Kansas city. I’d never left town. And I went to Boston and my. First day on the job, I was sitting at a desk and there was two desks facing each other and sitting across from me was Chris. And we, Chris was just talking and he said, Oh, they, they were doing, they had, they took in historic buildings in Boston, they were turning them into high end condos.
Toby Dorr: So Chris did a lot of that. He was a construction supervisor. And one of their workers was from El Salvador and he had gotten picked up in Maine. for public intoxication or something. And he was in jail. And Chris said he was just talking out loud. He said, Oh, I really need to write to, um, can’t even remember his name.
Toby Dorr: I’ll call him George. I really need to write to George and see what it’s going to take to get him out of jail. And I said, well, if you’re going to write to him and he’s in jail, you need to know his inmate number. Cause he might not get his mail if you don’t know his inmate number. And he said, how do you know that? And I thought, well, here it is. I can say, I don’t know, or I can just own it. And so I just said, well, I did some time and that’s all I said. And he said, oh, okay. And he went on, we finished our day. And the next day I came in the office and I sat down and he came, walked in. He said, we need to talk. I did a Google search on you last night. And, and he just. loves my story. And, um, you know, we’ll be on a train and he’ll say, this is my wife. She’s a felon. She was on America’s most wanted, you know, and I’m like, you know, so with him around, I’ve had to really embrace my story because he’s embraced it and, and he’s proud of it. Proud that what I went through and how I came out.
Toby Dorr: And so he has really lifted me up and, and encouraged me to be proud of it too.
Jackie Stuckey: it difficult for you to embrace love again?
Toby Dorr: It was so difficult. I had no intentions of it. You know, I gotten out of a marriage that didn’t work for me and took me 28 years to get out of. I’d gone on this whirlwind, wild, crazy, 12 day on the run car and ended in a car chase with this guy that I helped escape from prison. And I thought, you know, I don’t need any men in my life at all.
Toby Dorr: And God just kept Throwing Chris and I together like our desks face each other. And then, you know, something else happened and we’d be thrown together in a way that we couldn’t separate. And then he was, he got thrown out of where he was living and he was living in this unheated camp or way away. And I went and got him and brought him back.
Toby Dorr: And I said, it’s Thanksgiving week, Chris, I have two beds in my apartment. Come back, take a shower, do your laundry. I’ll fix this Thanksgiving dinner, you know? And then he got sick and couldn’t leave. Every time we tried to pull apart, something would happen that would force us to stay. And so after about a year, we just got married. And, um, I think there you are and it, We, we really learned how to be in each other’s space before we ever considered being a couple. And it was, so we built this great foundation that we were, we supported each other and, and knew each other really, really well. And then by the time we did get married, you know, it’s just been awesome.
Toby Dorr: Chris just is the best thing that’s ever happened to me. And I know I’m the best thing that’s ever happened to him. And, and together we can change the world.
Jackie Stuckey: Wow.
Toby Dorr: So I
Jackie Stuckey: I love that story.
Toby Dorr: it. Yeah, we could not get married. Yeah, God wasn’t gonna let it happen that we didn’t get together. So, you know, and the funny thing is, Chris is, Chris had been married before. I’d been married before too, but Chris had been married before and he was crazy in love with his wife and he never got over their divorce, but it was a really dysfunctional relationship.
Toby Dorr: marriage. And for 13 years, Chris cried and is like, I’m never going to find anybody. And he’d tell his mom, there’s no one out there for me. You know, I’m never going to find anybody. And his mom would, she was really wise person and really spiritual person. And she said, Chris, there is someone out there for you, but you need to give her time because you don’t know what God’s putting her through to prepare her for you. And so I always say the reason I went to prison was because Chris, he prayed for it. I had nothing to do with me. It was Chris’s fault.
Jackie Stuckey: But that’s still an amazing story. And talk about divine intervention.
Toby Dorr: it really is. It
Jackie Stuckey: I’m so happy for you. Maybe there’s hope
Toby Dorr: Yeah, thank you. And it really is good. What?
Jackie Stuckey: hope for me one day. I
Toby Dorr: Oh yes, I think there is. I think there is. And you know, Chris and I always say In our instance, one plus one doesn’t equal two. It’s more like 11 because together we just lift each other up and push each other out and we accomplish so much more because we support each other that strongly.
Jackie Stuckey: Great.
Toby Dorr: Yeah.
Jackie Stuckey: That’s beautiful.
Toby Dorr: It is beautiful. Um, but Chris is one of a kind. So what’s one word that inspires you?
Jackie Stuckey: I’m sorry.
Toby Dorr: What’s one word that inspires you?
Jackie Stuckey: Perseverance.
Toby Dorr: Oh, that’s a great word. Yeah. Never quit. Just keep going.
Jackie Stuckey: Yes, yes, yes. Well,
Toby Dorr: I love that. I love that. a pretty strong word. Well, Jackie, thank you so much for being on with us today.
Toby Dorr: It’s been my pleasure and I can’t wait to share your episode with the world.
Jackie Stuckey: thank you for having me. I really appreciate your time.
Toby Dorr: Oh, you’re more than welcome.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for tuning in to Fierce Conversations with Toby. Your support means the world, and I hope today’s episode made a positive impact on you. To keep our conversations going, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen. A five star rating, like, comment, or review helps tremendously in spreading our message.
Toby Dorr: You can also support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon. com slash fierce conversations. All members receive a downloadable gratitude journal and access to a private Facebook group. Plus, 10 percent of your subscription goes directly to donating my workbooks to women in prison. Finally, sharing this episode with your friends and family is a great way to amplify our mission.
Toby Dorr: Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Dorr, with production by Number Three Productions. The theme music, Grooving, composed by Lisa Plass, features Lisa on flute, Carolyn Parody on piano, and Tony Ventura on bass. Learn more at tobydorr. com. Thanks for listening, and remember, escape your prison.
