Toby Dorr: Welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby, the podcast where we dive deep into the art of overcoming. Here, we share powerful stories that ignite healing and inspire profound transformations in your own journey. I’m Toby Doerr, and together we’ll explore the resilience, courage, and fierce determination that turn life’s challenges into stepping stones for growth.
Toby Dorr: Let’s begin this transformative journey together.
Toby Dorr: Hi, I am so excited to bring you my guest today because she and I go way, way back, Kristen Caruso. I met through a meetup group. I think it was, they had a writing club, she and another woman, and I asked to be a part of it and I met them at a Taco Bell. And, uh, it was just an awesome experience. And after we graduated from the Taco Bell and met at Kristen’s house for, oh gosh, we met for about a year or so.
Toby Dorr: Didn’t we, Kristen?
Kristin Caurso: Yeah, I mean, maybe even longer, I, I tell you what, it is, it is humbling to think about us starting our writing careers at a Taco Bell, but that
Kristin Caurso: is the truth, isn’t it is, it is. Best thing that ever happened at a Taco Bell.
Toby Dorr: yes, I think you’re right. I think you’re right. And that was so much fun. And, you know, we would just bring every week our new writing and we would read it and critique it. And it and actually you and Kitty are in the back of my book as, you know, recognitions for my help along the way.
Toby Dorr: yes. Oh my gosh. That’s so Yeah. Kitty and Kristen, there you are. Yeah.
Kristin Caurso: sweet.
Toby Dorr: So I love it. So Kristen lives in Kansas city and she had her own podcast, which was pretty big called let’s go to court. And they’ve since winded that podcast down and now she and her husband Norman are starting a new podcast. You want to tell us a little bit about that?
Kristin Caurso: Sure. It’s called and we just figured out the name. So this is hot off the presses. It’s called an old timey podcast. So Norm and I have always been obsessed with history. We love a weird museum. You know, the more niche, the better. Um, some of our date nights. Our last big, you can’t really call it a date night when it’s during the day, but we went to John Brown’s cabin in Osawatomie, Kansas.
Kristin Caurso: That was our fun trip. So this podcast that we’re starting, it’s just, we take turns telling each other kind of a, maybe not such a little known tale from history, but just something that really interests us. So I’m so excited
Toby Dorr: I love that. I’m excited to hear it too, because I am so into history. You know, we’ve been to John Brown’s site in Hyper, Harper’s Ferry is Piper’s Ferry is about an hour’s drive from us. And so we’ve been up there a couple of times and they have a John Brown museum and they have, you know, this is where this happened and this is where that happened and it’s pretty cool.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Well, now you’ve made me jealous. I need to go to that.
Toby Dorr: You need to come up here. Uh, Harper’s Ferry is a cool little town. You would just love it. It’s up in the mountains, but, uh, it’s right where the Shenandoah flows into the Potomac and it’s just a fun little place, but yeah, there’s a lot of John Brown history up here too. It’s pretty cool.
Toby Dorr: Pretty cool. So Kristen, um, I’m going to throw out there. Kristen’s husband, Norm has the YouTube channel Gaming Historian. So I’m sure there’s a ton of people. Actually, I do have someone who helps me with the production of my podcast. And I said, I told him once, well, I, have you ever heard of Gaming Historian?
Toby Dorr: He said, Oh yeah, I watch it all the time.
Kristin Caurso: Oh, yay!
Toby Dorr: I said, well, I know him, so I’ll have to tell him now you’re a guest. So that’s pretty cool. Yes! Spread the word, near and far,
Toby Dorr: definitely will. I definitely will. So, um, before we get started, can you tell me what your favorite color is and what you think it says about you?
Kristin Caurso: Okay, I did tell you before we started recording that I’d listen to some of your episodes, and I was like, oh gosh, what does my favorite color say about me? My favorite color is fire engine red,
Toby Dorr: Oh,
Kristin Caurso: which, I mean, not to be boring, but I think that means I’m fiery, right?
Toby Dorr: I think it does. And sad gold. Yes, I There we go. Yes. Yes. I love that. I think that’s awesome. So in Kristen, of course we started our relationship writing books and Kristen was writing a novel about Becca at a camping event in her summertime. And so tell us a little bit about your writing journey.
Kristin Caurso: Oh gosh. Well, hopefully, hopefully this is a tale of perseverance that will one day pay off and be glorious right now. It’s kind of a
Kristin Caurso: sad tale, but so I just from a really young age, I always wanted to be a novelist. I’ve always loved reading, loved writing. And so when you and I first met, I was working on my first book and. I, you know, was just so nervous. I was in that stage of writing, which, you know, maybe no one ever graduates from. It’s like one day you have a good writing day and you feel like maybe, maybe you’re a genius and then you have a terrible writing day and you’re like, I’m the dumbest person on the planet. So, you know,
Kristin Caurso: it’s like you, you’re riding that wave. And so I, I finished what I felt was a really good draft of that book. It took me. Couple years and I got offers from a few literary agents. And I was like, oh, yes, because Kitty, who you just talked about
Kristin Caurso: from our group, she had had an agent and she’d gotten published. And I knew so little about the industry that I just kind of assumed, well, if you’ve got an agent, you’re getting
Toby Dorr: get published, right? Mm-Hmm.
Kristin Caurso: Spoiler alert, not necessarily true.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. Right. It’s not of the journey.
Kristin Caurso: Yeah, so I got a lot of really sweet rejections from editors who were like we like it, but we don’t love it And so, you know, oh god, I was devastated So I started writing another book and I decided I should write it really really quickly and I did and it was really really bad So I didn’t I didn’t send that one to anyone now that will die on my laptop
Kristin Caurso: But I’m working on a third one now and you know fingers crossed
Toby Dorr: Yes, fingers crossed. I can’t wait to read it. You know, uh, my, uh, memoir got picked up by an agent and she had it for 18 months and nothing ever happened. And so, you know, I took it back and, and I found a publisher that published it for me. So yeah, I think that might be the way to do Yeah. Yeah. The journey is, um, it’s fraught with road bumps.
Toby Dorr: I would say that.
Kristin Caurso: Well, and if you’re someone who likes to be in control, which I think a lot of writers are, I mean, we literally sit alone and create our own world and we decide what happens. And then it’s just such a, such a kick to the gut that you then have to turn it over to other people who then decide what happens with it.
Toby Dorr: yes. Yeah. And you know, like I remember I worked so hard on my first line and I just loved it. I was in love with it. And then my publisher, we went to editing and we went to developmental editing and they said, we don’t want to start the book there. We want to start it here, which was at the time I got out of prison instead of the day of the escape.
Toby Dorr: And it made sense. It made perfect sense. And so I did, but I lost that beautiful first sentence.
Kristin Caurso: I, who’s, who’s the person who, who said, kill your darlings?
Kristin Caurso: That’s Oh, yes, it’s awful, but it’s what you have to
Kristin Caurso: do what you have to do. Yes, it is. And you know, I played with that memoir for years and years and years. And then it took this new publisher to say to me, that’s not the story. The story is your story. That’s not the story of the escape. It’s the story of you after the escape and rebuilding your life.
Toby Dorr: And I was like, well, Wow, that’s true. That is the story. So when I refocused, it made all the difference in the world.
Kristin Caurso: That had to be hard to hear, though, because, to me, there’s something about a critique, if, especially if the person’s right, it’s
Kristin Caurso: almost harder to take, because it’s like, well, now I really do have to
Kristin Caurso: take their advice. Yes. Yes, and so now, you know, that this memoir is going to be about me, imagine that.
Kristin Caurso: Mm hmm.
Toby Dorr: I had to really get so much deeper into who I was, and it was difficult, but It was the best thing, I think.
Kristin Caurso: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I mean, you’ve been on quite a journey.
Toby Dorr: Yes, I certainly have. It is fascinating. It’s been great. I’m going to close this door
Kristin Caurso: Sure.
Toby Dorr: because somebody’s mowing their lawn. And I can hear it even closer, so we won’t have to deal with that. So, um, let’s see. Oh, you know what? I was going to ask you to tell the story about when we first met.
Kristin Caurso: Oh, my gosh. I love that. Okay.
Toby Dorr: I do too. I think it’s hilarious. Yes.
Kristin Caurso: I was in a novel writing critique group with, uh, this other woman, Kitty Carr, and we’d gotten an email from you saying, Hey, I’m working on a memoir. Is it okay if I join, you know, cause it’s not a novel, it’s a memoir. And you know, we, Kitty and I talked about it and we were both of course like, well, sure, that’s fine.
Kristin Caurso: Writing is writing. So you sent us your first chapter for critique, and I still remember exactly where I was when I opened that document. I was in bed. I thought, well, I’ll just read this real quick, you know,
Kristin Caurso: before tomorrow’s meeting. And it was a chapter about a woman. In a high speed chase down a highway with helicopters overhead, and I, and it ended with hitting a tree, I remember, I was, I was just stunned. I was, of course, totally sucked in, but my main takeaway was, well, this woman doesn’t know the difference between a memoir and a novel. Because obviously this didn’t really happen to her. just thought, and that, I was so sure, I didn’t even Google you at first. I was just like, oh gosh, this poor lady doesn’t know.
Kristin Caurso: Well, all right, it’s still good writing.
Toby Dorr: Yeah,
Kristin Caurso: I think it was Kitty who was like, uh, no, you gotta Google her. This really happened to her. So that’s,
Kristin Caurso: that’s how we got our start.
Toby Dorr: yes, that’s right. That’s right. I remember it. It was so funny because it is quite a story. And one time we were on a train going somewhere in Missouri and, and Chris said, Chris, my husband and we were in the dining car and he said, Oh, we should have brought our cards. Cause there was a guy there playing cards.
Toby Dorr: And the guy said, Oh yeah. He said, what card, what card game do you like to play? And Chris said, well, you probably wouldn’t know it, but it’s called spite and malice. And my wife learned it in prison and the guy just busted out laughing, you know, and he says, Oh buddy, you’re going to get in trouble for that.
Toby Dorr: You know, and everywhere we go, like Chris is just so. delighted with my story that he’s always ready and willing to tell it. So it’s just funny though because people don’t believe it. I don’t look like it. Felon or a criminal or America’s most wanted person. So it is just kind of,
Kristin Caurso: Yeah, it is funny. And it, you know, it really makes you gosh, I guess, question what you think of people who have been to prison of who looks like someone who’s been to prison. Um, Yeah, it’s it just goes to show a lot of people go to prison,
Kristin Caurso: you know you know, statistically one in four of us have been in the justice system in some way in America, and that’s, that’s a big statistic. Mm and this is dangerous because of course, I’m I’m gonna try to share a statistic and I don’t remember it at all, but Where where could we go wrong here? But I believe it’s America. We we incarcerate a pretty darn large percentage of our population compared to a lot of other nations.
Toby Dorr: 25.
Kristin Caurso: It’s
Toby Dorr: have, well, let me say this. We have 4 percent of the world’s population, but we have 25 percent of the world’s incarcerated population.
Kristin Caurso: I should have known you would know the statistic.
Kristin Caurso: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: Yeah. It’s just crazy. We love to throw people in prison. We think that solves every problem when really the root of so many crimes is, uh, social justice type of an issue.
Toby Dorr: You know, you know, make make training more available to people, you know, make it easier for people to have jobs where they can make a sustainable living. And, you know, there’s just so many things that would make our country safer that we don’t even try tackle because our answers just throw him in prison and then we get out.
Toby Dorr: And if you don’t do anything for them while they’re in prison, then they do something else when they get out and they go back and then they get out and then they go back and all those extra crimes don’t even need to be committed. If you would just solve the problem in the first place.
Kristin Caurso: Well, it’s tough when people are profiting off of prisons,
Toby Dorr: Oh my God. Yes. Where am I taking us? My gosh.
Toby Dorr: yeah, you’re going right in my direction. You know, there’s this thing in America called for profit prisons, which doesn’t make any sense. because prison should be about rehabilitation, not about, you know, raping and pillaging your captive audience. You’re literally captive audience.
Toby Dorr: So phone calls, you know, there’s companies out there that a phone call to home might cost you 15 or 20 just a local phone call to home because they charge you two or 3 a minute. And most people in prison don’t have extra money on their books. And, and especially if you’re a women in prison who have children at home, you need to be able to make phone calls to stay in contact with your children because they need a mother figure in their life.
Toby Dorr: And You can’t afford it. I had a really good friend, Steve, who, um, told me to call him whenever I wanted. And I called him every day, the whole time I was in prison. And he wrote a letter to me every single day too, of the 27 months. And sometimes it would just be a Sudoku puzzle, you know, every day he’d send me something and I’d call him just almost every day in the evening.
Toby Dorr: And I did not know until I got out of prison that those monthly phone bills were larger than his car payment. Yeah. I had no idea, but he never once told me, you know, let’s don’t talk for quite so long or, you know, let’s call every other day, but he never did. It’s, it’s a significant expense and most families can’t afford that.
Kristin Caurso: Well, and I bet those phone calls meant the world to you.
Toby Dorr: Yes, they did. They did. It was a lifeline. It just, you know, it just, it makes all the difference in the world in the, uh, you know, the person who is released from prison, being able to keep that contact with someone on the outside. And it’s just ridiculous, ridiculous. And so, you know, I think I told you the story where I slipped and fell and broke my leg Yes! Yes, And the was prison and it took them 10 days to X ray it. So I had to lay there with a broken leg for 10 days with no aspirin. Nothing. And, you know, because, well, they wanted to be sure it really needed the expense of an x ray before they x rayed it. It’s just ridiculous.
Kristin Caurso: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: Ridiculous. So, I’m interested to know if there’s a significant event in your life that knocked you down and how did you pick yourself up?
Toby Dorr: Oh, Oh gosh. okay.
Kristin Caurso: Well, I could name a couple. I’ll stick to one. Um, you know, my big one was law school.
Kristin Caurso: So, yeah, little fun fact about me. I did not know that I had ADHD until about a year or two ago. Um, it just presents very differently in boys and girls,
Kristin Caurso: and I think we’re learning a lot more now. But, you know, back when I was a kid, the fact that I was quiet in school, Meant that of course I couldn’t have ADHD because the ADHD kids were loud.
Kristin Caurso: That was kind of the stereotype But you know in more recent years, I think people have learned that yeah, if if someone’s daydreaming all day long then There’s an issue there. So
Toby Dorr: hmm. Um, so I But you know, I I went to college I got my journalism degree, started working as a newspaper reporter, and it was, you know, 2008, which was a wonderful time, uh, to work in print journalism, so I decided, okay, I’m gonna go to law school, and I got in, and I was so proud, and I think a big factor, if I look back, is, you know, Having undiagnosed ADHD, I thought I was stupid. And so the fact that I got into law school made me feel smart.
Kristin Caurso: And so, of course, my ego took control. I told everybody that I got into law school, I’m gonna be a lawyer, you know, dee dee dee dee dee. Well, then I went to law school and I hated it. And I was bad at it. I mean, that’s, that’s the other factor. I was bad at it. And I did one semester I just knew in my gut that I didn’t want to do anymore,
Toby Dorr: Mm hmm.
Kristin Caurso: but I was so embarrassed
Kristin Caurso: by the idea of quitting.
Toby Dorr: Mm did quit. But it was, oh my gosh, the shame I felt around it, the embarrassment, because, you know, once you tell everybody, once you brag to everyone, then you have to un brag and say, I’m done.
Toby Dorr: Yes. I can so relate. That is true. And so. I just, I think looking back, you know, I’ve always struggled with some depression, but that, that was, that was a very rough period where it took me a couple of years to kind of build my self esteem back up a little bit. And then the irony was when I started my podcast, Let’s Go to Court, my tagline was one semester of law school.
Kristin Caurso: You know, that’s all the expertise I had. So we
Kristin Caurso: turned it into a joke.
Toby Dorr: Yes, and it was fun. Yeah.
Kristin Caurso: Yeah. And it was fun, but man, it, it took me years to get to a point where I was okay with the fact that I’d quit law school and even longer to get to the point where I could joke about the fact
Toby Dorr: Yes, yes. Yeah, that was a big step forward. I’d say, you know, and I remember I was a guest on your podcast And it’s obviously a comedy podcast, you know, it’s just hilarious and i’m like I thought How are they going to make my story funny? It’s not possible. You know what? We laughed the whole way through and I, and I left and I called my husband on the way home.
Toby Dorr: I said, who knew my story was a comedy, but it is.
Kristin Caurso: Well, it’s, it is so funny and I, you know, maybe it’s the type of people we are, but for me, Some of the biggest belly laughs I’ve had in my life have been during really dark times.
Kristin Caurso: And, I, you know, I do think obviously when, when you’re covering true crime or something serious, you have to be careful about where the laughs are coming from.
Kristin Caurso: But, you know, I remember having so much fun talking to you in that context, just cause we got to ask all kinds of questions
Kristin Caurso: like, you know, okay, well you went to the IMAX, what’d you see? Um, you know, there’s just so many elements to the, to the story that it’s like, it’s kind of, um, It’s interesting to explore, I guess.
Toby Dorr: yes. And it, it was so much fun for me. And that was the first time. I saw my story as fun and, and I see it that way all the time now, you know, I, I see the, the joy and the laughs and the fun and the craziness in it all the time now. But up until then, I just saw the shame of it.
Kristin Caurso: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: The embarrassment of it. The, I mean, you know, you can imagine if you get embarrassed for only doing one semester in law school, what it’s like to be the perfect person and, and be on America’s most wanted and on the news every night, you know, it’s pretty hard to overcome, but I think I really had a boost forward in that by podcast because it was the first you’re giving too much credit. Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, that’s, that’s amazing and thank you for that. I just, you know, there are layers to every story, you know, and I, I, I can’t imagine, you know, The shame that you felt for a while there. But yeah, I think with more distance and more, you’ve done a lot of work on yourself, which I think is, is key. Um, but yeah, there are elements that you just, you have to laugh.
Toby Dorr: You do need to laugh and it is funny. And, you know, I remember the day we went to the IMAX theater, John got some barbecue sauce on his white shirt and he was so upset about it. And I thought, well, who cares if you got barbecue sauce? I mean, here we are. You’re not in prison, you Right! That, see, now that is funny to me too! Like, it’s, it’s funny how quickly our complaints can change from one day I’m locked up, this is terrible, to oh my gosh,
Kristin Caurso: barbecue sauce on my white t shirt,
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Kristin Caurso: is that a Tim McGraw song I almost
Toby Dorr: It could be, I think, maybe it in that miniskirt. Yeah, that’s for sure. So who has been your most important mentor?
Kristin Caurso: Oh my gosh. Oh, okay. That’s a really good question. You know, it’s funny. So I’m going to cheat and maybe mention a couple. One of them is actually someone, you know,
Toby Dorr: I was just thinking that.
Kristin Caurso: yes. Yes. It’s Susan Massey.
Kristin Caurso: She was my, um, journalism teacher in high school and she was just incredible. It’s, it’s funny because, you know, I, I studied, you know, Journalism in college. I was a newspaper reporter and of course learned a ton along the way. But when I think about who taught me the most, not just about writing and editing, but about interacting with other people with interviewing, it’s, it’s Susan Massey, my high school journalism teacher.
Toby Dorr: And Susan is awesome. My connection with Susan is she lived down the street for from us when I was in kindergarten. She was a year older than me. And she and I were best friends. We were the only girls on the block. Everybody else was boys. And I spent so much time down at her house with her mom and she had two brothers and we were really close and they moved to Abilene, uh, I don’t know, maybe when I was nine or 10 and every summer.
Toby Dorr: I would go to Abilene for two weeks and stay with them. And it was during the state fair time because they were, they got really big into 4 H. And so Susan, she played violin,
Kristin Caurso: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: she did the butterflies under the glass, she did a sewing project, she did a cooking project, she did everything. And we’d spend the whole two weeks at the fair and just have the best time and And it was just amazing.
Toby Dorr: So Susan and I were really, really, really close. Yeah. She’s pretty cool. And that, and then I met you and found out she was your journalism teacher. I was just stunned. Yeah.
Kristin Caurso: People who are listening to this who aren’t from the Midwest are going to assume that, you know, there’s like four of us out here in the Midwest, and of course we all know each other.
Toby Dorr: Right now. But it’s a pretty big place actually.
Kristin Caurso: Yeah.
Toby Dorr: And it’s a small world at the same time. So, I mean, I did feel in Kansas city, like everybody knew everybody kind of, even though it’s a big city, it kind of has a small town, kind of a feel.
Kristin Caurso: It really does. And that’s the thing, is like, you know, You could probably, if you talk to someone long enough, you’re going to find out, Oh, you actually know this other person who
Kristin Caurso: knows this person. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, and Susan retired last year, I think it was. So now she’s home, but she was a yearbook person at the high school, and I think her yearbook won awards every single year. She’s sure did, Toby. she did. Yeah, that’s pretty fun.
Kristin Caurso: All the cool kids edited the yearbook. We all
Kristin Caurso: know that. Uh huh. yes, that’s the truth. That’s the truth. So, tell us about a turning point in your life that propelled you in an entirely new direction.
Kristin Caurso: Oh gosh. Okay, a turning point in my life that propelled me in a totally new direction. You know, I could show, I could choose this moment right now with the new podcast, but I think
Kristin Caurso: I’m going to go further back.
Kristin Caurso: Um, when, uh, my husband Norman, you mentioned he has the gaming historian YouTube channel. So he took kind of a big leap cause he had a, you know, very safe corporate job, nine to five. And he quit that to do YouTube full time. Um, And this was back before people were really doing that with any
Kristin Caurso: regularity. So it was the kind of thing that you, you would tell people and they’d go, Oh, really?
Kristin Caurso: Um, but he, he did that for about a year, really loved it. And then it got to the point where I could also take that leap of faith and join him.
Toby Dorr: Uh huh. And Yeah. I did, I quit my corporate job in public relations and joined him. And, um, I, I ended up learning so much from him about just the need to be brave and vulnerable in content creation. Um, I think I’m, I’m probably like a lot of people where, you know, I’ve got an idea and I could write it all down or I could even record the podcast, but then eventually you have to hit upload or eventually you have to hit publish. And that’s when it gets. Really, really scary. But Norman, because he’d been doing Gaming Historian for so long, had all that experience. And I remember when I told him I wanted to start a podcast and of course I wanted it to be perfect from minute one, which is ridiculous. And he told me it was ridiculous, which was hard for me to hear.
Kristin Caurso: But he said, you know, There’s a learning curve and he said, I look back to my first videos that I uploaded and they’re awful. I’m not embarrassed by them because I learned and I grew. And he said, you’re going to be the same way. You know, these first couple episodes. They’re going to be bad, but you’re going to get better. And I remember spending so long thinking, okay, but how do I bypass that part of being bad at first? And of course the answer is you don’t.
Toby Dorr: You just can’t. to do it. steps. Yeah, I think so. I think that’s so true. And, um, you know, one of my guests told me, one of my podcast guests said, Oh, I first found you because I heard you on let’s go to court. And she said, my goal in life is to be on their podcast. And I said, Oh, well, when you’re ready, I’ll introduce you.
Toby Dorr: But you know, now you’re onto something else. But I think that’s so funny. You never know where you’re going to cross paths with somebody. So that’s interesting. And I think it was so amazing. And I’m so impressed that you did a live show, you know, you ended, let’s go to court just recently, but you ended it with two live shows, sold out live shows in Kansas city, which was awesome.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, I
Kristin Caurso: it was a blast. It was bittersweet because of course. It was so fun. And, oh my gosh, my, my family was out there shaking hands. If people had brought babies, they would have kissed babies, you know. Everyone was having such a good time. Yeah, it was such a, it was such a fun way to end the show.
Toby Dorr: think it would be a blast. You know, I always thought, how can you podcast have a live show? What? I don’t understand. Well, I was on this is criminal podcast a Yes, yes. um, they did a live show and they came to Washington, D. C., and I reached out and on their way to Washington, D. C. You know, they were stopping at places along the way and doing episodes and they were doing this one episode.
Toby Dorr: They stopped at this place that had a liberal arts club. So it was like a book club, but it was liberal arts that they studied and they had a meeting and I was listening to that cause it was live and. Someone asked Phoebe, what’s your, you’ve recorded so many episodes. What’s your favorite episode? And she said, well, I have three and she named two of them.
Toby Dorr: And then she said, and then the third one that I just love was the episode with Toby door. And I was like, wow. And then the producer was on and they said, what was your favorite episode? She said, Oh, by far Toby’s episode. I just can’t stop thinking about it. And so I sent him a note, you know, an email and I said, I’m so honored that you mentioned my episode.
Toby Dorr: And. You know, I live in the DC area now and I know you’re coming next week and maybe, you know, maybe I’ll be able to come see you. And they immediately emailed me back and gave me backstage passes. And, you know, we got there early and, and Phoebe had set up a recording space so we could, you know, record a little 10 minute, where’s Toby now kind of a thing.
Toby Dorr: And then they released my episode. And then during their show, right before intermission, you know, Phoebe said, um, We love being in Washington, D. C. We always have such great crowds, but this year it was even extra special because we had Toby door here and then they your episode, you know, and everybody clapped.
Toby Dorr: And I was like, that’s cool. But we had so much fun at that live show. And I would go again to a podcast live show. It was just so much fun. Oh,
Kristin Caurso: Um, I think it’s, it’s fun for the podcasters. It’s fun for the audience, but like, I got to tell you, that does not surprise me at all that you were Phoebe’s favorite favorite because. We still would years after that interview we did with you We would still get people talking about that and usually when you break format Like you’re the only interview we ever did in six years and usually when you break format you get people going Well, I don’t know if I’m gonna listen to this because it’s
Kristin Caurso: different. about that. Uh huh.
Kristin Caurso: Oh, my gosh people loved that just because You were so authentic and vulnerable and real. And I think people, people can pick up on that so quickly
Toby Dorr: think they can too. They don’t even have to see you to know it. So I think that’s so true. Yeah. And to think when I got out of prison, I thought I was going to change my name and live somewhere quietly. That wasn’t going to happen. It just wouldn’t have worked, would it?
Kristin Caurso: No, it wouldn’t have. And you wouldn’t have made the impact that you’re making now.
Toby Dorr: Yes, yes, that’s true. That’s true. And I do feel really good about the work I’m doing. So,
Kristin Caurso: You should.
Kristin Caurso: You I’m excited. I’m excited about the new things I’m working on, too. So, I want to do a three day summit for women in person. And so I’m trying, I’m working on putting that together and, uh, creating, and I’m really targeting professional women in the middle of their life that are looking for a new direction.
Toby Dorr: So I’m excited about that. And, uh, there’s just so many things that I’m just on fire about. So I’m so glad I wasn’t didn’t change my name and, and, and. Blend into the wallpaper. So,
Kristin Caurso: Okay, so I know you’re supposed to be the one asking questions, but now I’ve got a question for you.
Kristin Caurso: How, how long, uh, How long did you consider doing that before you were like, no, I’m sticking with my real name. I’m not going to blend in. I’m going to be myself.
Toby Dorr: it was not very long. I mean, I really thought when I got out of prison, I’d even had my name picked out. I was going to be Sophie Martin because I like the name Sophie and my mom’s maiden name was Martin yeah. I got out of prison and I was, you know, You know, I hadn’t yet gotten to the point where I was ready to tell my story, but I was not ready to give up on Toby.
Toby Dorr: So, it didn’t last very long, thank goodness.
Kristin Caurso: That’s beautiful. I wasn’t ready to give up on Toby.
Toby Dorr: yes.
Kristin Caurso: Thank God you didn’t. Yeah.
Toby Dorr: Yes, I’m so glad of it. And you know, there’s people in my life who wanted me to. There’s people in my life who tell me if I quit telling my story, you know, I can be part of their lives again. But I, that I can’t live with that.
Kristin Caurso: No, no.
Toby Dorr: I guess.
Kristin Caurso: I mean, on a much smaller scale, you know, there were people who wanted me to stay in law school, you know, there are people will always want
Kristin Caurso: you to stick to a certain path or, but.
Toby Dorr: A safe.
Kristin Caurso: Yes. Yes. But you’re the one who has to live your life.
Toby Dorr: Yes, that’s so true. That’s so true. So I just love that. So I was actually going to ask you if there’s a question you’d like to ask me, but you beat me to it. Yeah, but that’s cool. So is there one question you wish that I had asked you and I didn’t?
Kristin Caurso: Oh, gosh. Question I wish you’d asked me. You know, it’s funny. I heard you ask this to other people and I thought, gosh, that’s a tough question. Did I prepare for it in any way? No. Um, gosh. I don’t know. I can’t. Am I the first person to say I can’t think of one?
Toby Dorr: Mostly. Oh no. there something about Kristen that we don’t know? No.
Kristin Caurso: Oh gosh. You know, it’s funny. That’s been the kind of nice thing about podcasting for so many years and being so open about what’s going on with me is I feel like
Kristin Caurso: people have gotten, yeah, people have gotten to know me, you know, the good, bad and the ugly. Um, And that has turned out to be such a beautiful thing.
Toby Dorr: It is. I do. I can relate to that because,
Kristin Caurso: yeah,
Toby Dorr: you know, there’s nothing to surprise anybody. It’s just all out there already. Yeah. I Well, that. that makes total sense to me that you feel that way too, because it’s like when, when people know all the, all the big stuff, then they kind of get you. On a deeper level and it’s like a shortcut to human connection in a way
Toby Dorr: I like that. I like that. Shortcut to human connection. Um, so tell us about your new podcast with Norm. Yes.
Kristin Caurso: Okay, so it’s called an old timey podcast Um, we’ve got this really talented, uh artist working on the logo for us She did the let’s go to court logo and now she’s doing an old timey podcast. So she’s got norman looking like abe lincoln And me looking like um, I sent her a bunch of images and she went with something very regal which I appreciate.
Kristin Caurso: I also sent her like a Lizzie Borden with an ax. So I’m kind of glad
Kristin Caurso: she didn’t go with that. But I, I tell you what, I am so fascinated by strange and interesting stories from, from the past. Um, in fact, we just did an episode on let’s go to court about, and this is going to sound boring. I promise it wasn’t about the creation of the FDA
Kristin Caurso: and hmm. mean, it’s just fascinating how really a small group of people who cares about ethics can really push for public safety, advocate for something really great. But it’s amazing what they come up against when they’re up against big corporations and a lot of money. Um, Norman and I just recorded our first episode yesterday and he did. The deepest dive into John Brown, which was a surprise to me. He didn’t tell me what he was covering, so
Kristin Caurso: I was a, I’m fascinated by John Brown. Yeah. I yeah. living right here, where he was, is kind of interesting.
Kristin Caurso: Well, you’ve kind of lived in a couple of the major
Kristin Caurso: points living In Kansas. and now living near DC. Um, Yeah. Norm, uh, it’s, it’s amazing, he, he only covered, this will be a two part episode, and this first part we recorded for three hours and forty seven minutes,
Kristin Caurso: so if that gives you any indication,
Toby Dorr: Look at how much material there was. Wow. And you’ve got to cut that down to a podcast episode?
Kristin Caurso: well, you know, who knows how long people will hang in
Kristin Caurso: there, I’m hoping, you know, they’ll pause, come back to it, whatever, That sounds really interesting. Well, I’ll be on the lookout for you because I come across so many historical tidbits around here. It’s just I bet, I Yeah, yeah. There’s a John Brown Museum in Harpers Ferry. So
Kristin Caurso: should be, as
Toby Dorr: yes,
Kristin Caurso: be.
Toby Dorr: it’s pretty cool. So there’s so much that happened around here, but I’ve come up with some.
Toby Dorr: I’m always on the lookout for women in history who made a difference because I’ve used them in my work and I’ve got a whole list of them. So I’ll send you some of them because they might be good topics for you. Yeah, I definitely will. I definitely will. So what’s one word that inspires you?
Kristin Caurso: Perseverance.
Toby Dorr: Yes, that’s a good one. That’s a good one. You know, and I love how you left your job to go work with Norm on Gaming Historian, and then you decided to do your own thing, and then for its own reasons, it kind of unraveled and ended, and, and, Within two weeks, you’re off on a new podcast journey with Norm, which is going to be exciting, I think.
Toby Dorr: So I can’t wait to listen. I think it’ll be lots of fun.
Kristin Caurso: Well, thank you. I, I do have to admit it has been a panicked rush to get, you know, I want to, I, I, you know, maybe part of it is just the nervous energy of, you know, I’m so proud of Let’s Go to Court, so proud of what we built and I want to keep it going.
Kristin Caurso: And of course the fans have been so sweet. I really do feel like the fans would have given me more time if I needed to take
Kristin Caurso: more time. but but I what, I’m, not wanting to sit still for that long, you
Kristin Caurso: still. So I might as well do
Kristin Caurso: something. So I can definitely see that. Well, I’m really excited about your new podcast and we’re going to have links in the show notes to the podcast and I’ll put one in there for Gaming Historian too so people will be able to
Kristin Caurso: that.
Toby Dorr: you guys.
Toby Dorr: So thanks so much Kristen for being on. I really enjoyed that. You’re welcome. It was my delight.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for tuning in to Fierce Conversations with Toby. Your support means the world, and I hope
Toby Dorr: today’s episode made a positive impact on you. To keep our conversations going, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen. A five star rating, like, comment, or review helps tremendously in spreading our message. You can also support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon. com slash fierce conversations. All members receive a downloadable gratitude journal and access to a private Facebook group. Plus, 10 percent of your subscription goes directly to donating my workbooks to women in prison. Finally, sharing this episode with your friends and family is a great way to amplify our mission.
Toby Dorr: Fierce Conversations is created and hosted by me, Toby Doerr, with production by Number Three Productions. The theme music, Grooving, composed by Lisa Plass, features Lisa on flute, Carolyn Parody on piano, and Tony Ventura on bass. Learn more at tobydoerr. com. Thanks for listening, and remember, escape your prison.
