Toby Dorr: Hello, and welcome to Fierce Conversations with Toby.
The show where we talk about difficult things so we can shine light on whatever is imprisoning us. I’m Toby Dorr. In today’s episode, we’re going to explore a stage 4 cancer diagnosis with my guest, Tekquiree Spencer. Tekquiree is an actress, filmmaker, wellness coach, and advocate. It wasn’t until her diagnosis of stage 4 inflammatory breast cancer that she had to apply everything she learned. To go within and do everything God was telling her to do so she could heal. Her healing journey has taught her that health plus wellness is not just about what we eat, but also what we think, feel, and how we stand in our power and love ourselves. Tekquiree is the host and creator of the Thrive Beyond Cancer Summit. The founder of Thrive Beyond Cancer, a 501c3 non profit organization whose mission is to help cancer patients and survivors thrive, and the CEO of Thrive by Tekquiree.
I’m, so delighted to have you on my podcast this week. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Tekquiree Spencer: My name is Tekquiree and I am a wellness advocate and I am also a filmmaker and an actress.
Toby Dorr: Yeah, your husband’s a producer or something, isn’t he?
Tekquiree Spencer: He is. He’s a director and a producer and an editor.
Toby Dorr: Exciting! So maybe you should do your own podcast because you’ve got all the tools
Tekquiree Spencer: I know some people, tell me, I should do a podcast too. So maybe that’s in the works.
Toby Dorr: Yes, that’d be fun. That’d be fun. Well, if you do, I’d love to help you with it if you have any questions. So just let me know.
Tekquiree Spencer: Oh, thank you.
Toby Dorr: So before we start, I kind of like to start out with a soft little question, which lets people know a little bit more about you. And that is, and I’m going to guess what it is already just by looking at you. But what is your favorite color and why?
Tekquiree Spencer: You guessed right. My favorite color is green. Um, as you can tell, I’m colored two different colors. Well, my background color is green and then I have a bunch of houseplants.
Toby Dorr: Yes.
Tekquiree Spencer: But, uh, it’s green. You know what, it wasn’t always my favorite color, but it has been for like the last seven years and it’s like a, it’s a healing color and it represents nature, prosperity, health, all of that good stuff, the heart chakra, all of that. So it’s just, it’s become my color. It’s like my rebirth color.
Toby Dorr: I love that. And green definitely is rebirth. That’s what we all look forward to in the spring. We know it’s coming when we see the green. And I know on your website and in your seminars that you give and things like that, your brand colors are really dark green and a really bright neon vibrant pink, which just are such a great combination that nobody else uses. And I love it.
Tekquiree Spencer: Thank you so much.
Toby Dorr: What’s the hardest decision you’ve ever had to make?
Tekquiree Spencer: Ooh. Hardest decision I’ve ever had to make. Um, there’s a few, but I think for me was after I was diagnosed with cancer, I had to tell my doctors, basically speak up for myself, like tell them what I wanted to do and what God wanted me to do and that was difficult because I’m like I am telling these doctors that I’m not ready to do something and then at the same time, you know, certain family members wanted me to do chemotherapy right away. I knew that that’s not what I was supposed to do right away. And so that was very difficult for me because – it felt very lonely in that moment. And for me to actually go against what everybody else thought was the right thing, that was very difficult for me.
Toby Dorr: That would be difficult. And so, we’ve kind of started to talk a little bit about your cancer diagnosis, and I’m going to guess that is the answer to your next this next question. But tell us about a significant event in your life that knocked you down. And how did you pick yourself up?
Tekquiree Spencer: That is, I think, not, I think, I know, like cancer being diagnosed with stage four inflammatory breast cancer and, you know, I was 36 weeks pregnant when that happened and, um, I was in Atlanta, like I’m in Atlanta right now. I was in Atlanta when that happened and, um,
Toby Dorr: And you live in California, right?
Tekquiree Spencer: Yes, I live in California.
Tekquiree Spencer: Yes. And I went home, you know, to the Bay Area. To be with my family, my mom, my dad, my sisters and brothers, and I wasn’t even living there. I was living in LA, my husband and I had a house in LA. We were in Atlanta because my husband was working on a TV show. And so we didn’t want him to miss the birth of our child. So we’re in Atlanta. After having my son in Atlanta, we got on a plane when my son was three weeks old. We had to get a note from his doctor so he could travel when he was that little. And I started to go into depression, dealing with everything.
Toby Dorr: There are so many things going on there. I mean, just giving birth is, well, I don’t know if you’d call it traumatic because traumatic has a negative connotation, but it is traumatic. It’s a traumatic event for your body. And then to be a recently diagnosed cancer patient and trying to figure out how you’re gonna navigate being a mother and keeping yourself alive and, and finding your way through this thing, so
Tekquiree Spencer: Yes. And the treatment. And then I had a C-section too. I was totally thinking I wanted to have this home water birth, with everything that I thought was going to happen. It was like the complete opposite. So even dealing with that and then try not to, you know, go into the whole victim mode. It’s like why is this happening to me? Like what is happening to my life? You know and I was 34 years old when that was happening and it was a lot, you know? And, here I am, like I was at home in Oakland, California with my family. And, you know, that was a blessing. I’m like, yo, I’m not in my house in LA.
Like I have this new mom now, like with treatment options and I’m going to choose? Like, it was just very difficult for me to even laugh and enjoy the moment. Like Christmas came around and my family, they had a, you know, every year, like they get together for Christmas and I’m like talking aunties, uncles, cousins, everybody. And I just remember being there and feeling so out of my body, like I couldn’t wait for this moment to be over. And it was like, I just, I couldn’t enjoy it, you know? And then I, I felt very much like, in a way, I don’t know, it just felt like everybody was kind of like staring at me in a…
Toby Dorr: Yes. People don’t know how to approach you. “Oh, she’s got this cancer diagnosis. Does she want to talk about it? I mean, should I not bring it up? Should I just talk about the weather? People just don’t think about it. And that’s one of the things that my podcast is about Let’s talk about what we need to do in those situations so that when you’re confronted with them You already have an idea of what is the right way to approach someone. So what would have worked for you? What would you have liked? People in your family, how would you have liked them to approach you during that moment?
Tekquiree Spencer: Treat me how you would at any other Christmas. How are you doing? Like, you know, like, of course, you know, they’re going to ask me about my baby. My baby’s like a month and a half at that point. And you know, don’t treat me any different. And any other time like I’m still to carry, you know, like I get it. I’m going through all of these things, but like, just have regular conversation with me. You know, I still I’m still me. I still like what I like,
Toby Dorr: Yeah. I like that. And you would’ve preferred people to talk to you instead of feeling uncomfortable enough that they didn’t acknowledge at all.
Tekquiree Spencer: Exactly. And sometimes, you know, we don’t want to talk about our diagnosis. We live, think, and breathe it every moment of every day, especially when you’re going through it and it’s new for you. Let’s talk about something else. Or giving your advice. I think that’s the wrong time.
Toby Dorr: Oh, yes, it.
Tekquiree Spencer: The wrong time to give advice about what you should do. I’m like, can I enjoy this family time without… can we have, maybe we can have a separate conversation or ask, like, “Hey, there’s some information I found that I’d like to share with you or something that … when’s a good time to talk about it?”
Tekquiree Spencer: If you want to talk about it, let me know. I would love to share this information with you. Like, everybody doesn’t want your advice.
Toby Dorr: I love that. Yeah. And you know, people around you, when you have a loved one that has a cancer diagnosis, they want to help. You know, our personality is to jump in and fix things and help. And, if they aren’t doctors, then the best they can do is research on the internet and get ideas for different kinds of treatments So then they want to push them on you.
Toby Dorr: And oftentimes you’re not interested in hearing about them.
Tekquiree Spencer: That’s so true. And it’s the way they say it too. And I get it. Like, so I definitely had to, as I, you know, reflected after time has gone by and I’m like, okay, like you said, a lot of people, they were trying to be helpful. They were trying to fix it. And so I have to give them some grace with that, even though in that moment, I just felt so uncomfortable – even really hurt by what some people have said.
Toby Dorr: I could think of people that perhaps maybe get diagnosed with lung cancer and then your first thing you ask them is, oh, were you a smoker?
Tekquiree Spencer: Right, don’t go there.
Toby Dorr: I had a cancer diagnosis myself in 2004 and my cancer was certainly not as aggressive and advanced as yours. I had thyroid cancer and had to have my thyroid removed. But hearing the word cancer after your name just kind of shakes your whole world. And that’s actually what drove me to starting the Prison Dog Program because I realized we didn’t have an unlimited amount of time here, and so far, I hadn’t really done anything to make the world a better place, so I better get busy, and so that kind of led me to that, but I remember when I went to the surgeon’s office after I’d had the biopsy, and we knew it was cancer, and my husband at the time drove me to the doctor’s appointment, and I told him, you stay in the car. I don’t want you to come in with me. And he’s like why and I said because I want to be free to make my own decision when I talk to the doctor. I want to be able to decide for myself. I don’t want you to tell me what you think I should do and I know that was hard for him But it was really important to me to not be pushed into something. I didn’t want to do
Tekquiree Spencer: And listen to your own voice and intuition and all of that, it’s so easy to get caught up in what everybody else,
Toby Dorr: Yes, and all the studies – you can find a study about anything and they’re all different, you know, this one’s completely this answer this one’s completely on the other side So you do kind of need that space to find your own path and it is a very personal journey And I think giving you the space to do that is a gift from the people around you.
Tekquiree Spencer: Absolutely.
Toby Dorr: So, this could be related to the same thing, but I’m wondering if you have a trauma in your past that caused positive change.
Tekquiree Spencer: This, I guess being diagnosed with stage 4 just did so much to me. I would say like that was definitely like my biggest trauma that caused positive change. For sure, because just like you said, when you get a diagnosis like that, You it is really put in perspective. Like, wow, how much time do I have here? Like, there’s no more wasting time and messing around. And, so interesting, though, because literally probably four months before my diagnosis, I was sitting with a friend in L.A. and I was telling her how. I’ve always wanted to have like this healing center and help people heal and things like that.
My husband has Crohn’s disease. So, you know, being his partner and things that he has gone through and I was always interested in my dad. He’s always been into health – how can we help people heal right not knowing at all that months later I would be going through what I was going through that I would with cancer and as I’m going through treatment and healing and all of that I didn’t think that I would be helping people, after that. And so God is like, this is what I want you to do. So all of that really was like dealing with the trauma of that. And, you know, sometimes even still dealing with the trauma of that. Is what keeps me going to help other people who are going through the same thing or something similar, because I’ve realized that we definitely do need community when it comes to that.
Toby Dorr: Yes, community is so important. And, you know, I was at a Bible study this morning and they were talking about four different kinds of love. And they said the strongest one is in support. You know, when you’re supporting someone else who’s going through something. And I thought that was so true. And they talked about how bonding that event was when you’re supporting someone else through something.
Tekquiree Spencer: Yes, you never forget it.
Toby Dorr: And when you have a story like yours that has so much rich beauty in it, the midst of hardship, that story becomes an inspiration to other people. And so you have to tell it, you have to get it out there in the world because it can do so much good. There’s so many people who face the very same moment in their life that you did and if they have a place to look to for inspiration or advice, wow, that’s making a difference in the world.
Tekquiree Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. And I remember to like, you know, I’m normally not anymore so much, but like back then, you know, this was 2016. After my diagnosis, I put it on Facebook. That this is what was going on with me. And it was so freeing to me, but when I did that, so many people reached out to me and told me that they were going through the same thing I would have never known. And like people my age, and that’s what just kind of just made me think like, there’s a lot of people, my age and younger and I’m happy and I hope and pray that they will start testing people a lot earlier. There’s young people who are going through cancer, too.
Toby Dorr: There are. My son died of Hodgkin’s lymphoma and it was just 17 days before his 25th birthday. And, you know, you just think that young people are immune from some of these horrible things and, and they’re not.
Tekquiree Spencer: And they’re not.
Toby Dorr: They’re not. And I remember, for part of his journey, I remember his brother and his father and, other family members giving him advice on that he should do chemo, that he should do this. And I know he was feeling like he wanted to make his own decisions and he really struggled that he was a young man. He didn’t even live on his own at the time. And, he wanted to make his own decisions and live life his own way. So I can understand that and your son..
Toby Dorr: How many weeks after your diagnosis was your son born?
Tekquiree Spencer: three weeks after.
Toby Dorr: Three weeks after and his name has a special significance, doesn’t it?
Tekquiree Spencer: His name means Jace. Well, no, his name means Jace. His name is Jace. His name doesn’t mean Jace. His name means healer.
Toby Dorr: Yes. Yes. His name means healer.
Tekquiree Spencer: His name means healer. Yeah. Yes. And I honestly, like, like I said, like this was and, this is around the time when I had that conversation with my friend about what I wanted to do. Help people heal from different types of illnesses and things like that. And, this was in July, right around the time when I went to see my OBGYN for my checkup. When to go get my punch biopsy done my first biopsy done. And, God was like, okay, we knew like we had to start thinking about names, and God gave me that name, and I had no idea that I would be going through what I was going through, but it’s interesting though – Now I get chills about it because I didn’t think about how I had that conversation with my friend and then God gives me the name, you know to name him Jace which means healer and then for myself and even for him going through all of what we were going through. And for healing and talk about healing and to help people with healing, not just physically, but, mentally and spiritually as well. And emotionally.
Toby Dorr: So, so tell us a little bit about what you’re doing now. I know you have a whole brand called Thrive, and I love it because you say, I am not a cancer survivor, I am a cancer thriver, and I love that.
Tekquiree Spencer: Thank you. I call myself a Cancer Thriver. I’m also a wellness advocate, big advocate for everyone’s wellness, their wellbeing. And so I have different types of programs. I have a nonprofit called Thrive Beyond Cancer. My company is called Thrive by Tekquiree and it’s all about helping people thrive. Whether you have cancer or a chronic illness or whether you want to thrive and, live your life to the fullest and thrive in with your wellness, spirit, health, all of that. So, that’s what I do. And I’m happy about it, like I love, and I love being a cancer thriver and not a cancer survivor.
I switched that because, in my being and in my body, when I say thriver, it’s like I’m living, you know what I mean? I’m not going back to what I survived. And I learned like, even before, my oncologist told me that you don’t have cancer anymore. I had to learn how to thrive, and I was thinking about it a little bit, like, well, more so like my focus was on living and thriving. And once I focused on doing that, you asked me the question earlier about how I was able to change. From being in a trauma, dealing with trauma, then, coming out of it. And, that’s how I was able to come out of it. So I really just started living my life, going to all of these different places in the Bay Area, all these places I’ve always wanted to go to. Once I started focusing on that, and doing things that I love to do, and reading, and being in the sun, and living, and smiling, and laughing, like, yes, I was still going through treatment and all of that, but I stopped making the treatment and cancer be the number one thing in my life and what I was thinking about, and I started making thriving being the number one thing. And a month and a half, two months later, my doctor’s like, there’s nothing there.
Toby Dorr: Wow.
Tekquiree Spencer: I was like, wow, that’s so powerful. Cause I think even now, right, we put something out there, we pray about something, we take the action or what have you. And when we don’t consume our minds with it, it comes to us, you know? And I was like, wow. Like I think about that even now.
Toby Dorr: I think when you use the word survivor, it implies somehow that you’ve been a victim of something. And when you’re a victim, you’re kind of squashed by that victimness. And, you know, that’s one of the things I teach in my work, is that… don’t let yourself be a victim. You might be in prison. You might have done something that’s got you in a bad situation, but you can be victorious over that situation. So be a victor and not a victim. And that’s exactly what you’ve done with being a thriver instead of a survivor. And I think that is so powerful. And recently I went to one of your seminars.
Tekquiree Spencer: Write and Thrive?
Toby Dorr: Yes, yes, and it was just so uplifting and exciting and there’s so much energy and positivity that you bring into the work you do that people can’t help but be inspired to do something I just love that.
Tekquiree Spencer: Thank you.
Toby Dorr: So, what is your life like now? Has cancer affected the way you live today?
Tekquiree Spencer: Oh, for sure. I live even more so now, and I’m very aware of what I do. And even, like, being a mom, I’m sure, too, probably even for you, I talk about emotions a lot, and spirituality, and I see. I always think about how I came to be who I am and even with dealing with cancer and everything and so even with my child, I’m very aware of like how I speak to him and how he deals with his emotions and, I definitely want him to be aware of people pleasing and things like that and how we come to become, how we, you know, get to, to be a people pleaser. And, I’m just more aware and really live my life. Like, God tells me to do something or go somewhere. I’m there. I’m definitely less afraid of what I’ve been called to do.
Toby Dorr: I love that. I love that. I can relate to that. Um, And, I’m making a note here, because I love that, I have to write that down. That you’re less afraid of doing what you’re called to do.
Tekquiree Spencer: yeah.
Toby Dorr: Many of us are afraid, you know, and it’s a risk to step out there and do something different. But, wow, without the risk there can be no great reward. So,
Tekquiree Spencer: A word right there. Right there.
Toby Dorr: So who has been your most important mentor? I
Tekquiree Spencer: I mean, I’ve had like some really great coaches, a mentor. I would say like, my parents have been really great. My mom, I mean, both of them, they taught me like some amazing things. Like they are my biggest cheerleaders. They just believe that I can do and accomplish anything, like sometimes more than what I believe, you know? And I will say for my mom, like when I was going through everything, even now, even before, she always knew what was going to happen. It was so interesting to me. When I had to go to get my first scan, she was there. When I had to get my scan after I started, different types of treatment. She didn’t go with me to get that scan. But when I came before I went to go get the scan, before I went to go meet with my oncologist, I remember what she said to me. I can even see it all in my head. I feel it all in my body, but she was like, it doesn’t matter what the doctor report says. All that matters is what. God says.
Toby Dorr: Love that.
Tekquiree Spencer: Be even more brave and that it doesn’t like exactly what she said. Like, okay, this is not the end. No one knows when it’s the end and only God can make that call. So I was prepared to meet with my oncologist and to be less afraid and every time I would go back home and I’ll tell her what happened. She was like, I knew, I already knew that. Yeah.
Toby Dorr: That connection is just amazing. Through my whole prison journey, I couldn’t have made it without my mom. She was the best example of unconditional love that I’ve ever witnessed. And all that mattered was that moment, when she was there with me in the visiting room. And one time I said to her, “Oh, mom, look at all this time I’m wasting.” And she said, “Toby. We have the whole rest of our lives.” and she just was, moms are just so awesome.
Tekquiree Spencer: They are. Oh, that makes me like tear up. So amazing.
Toby Dorr: And you know, my mom was awesome and she’s gone now. And boy, I still miss her. And there’s so many times I just want to pick up the phone and call her. And sometimes I do pick up the phone to think to call her. And then I remember, oh, she’s gone. But she knows, she knows that I need this. So, that’s just beautiful. I love that. So, was there ever a time when you really felt imprisoned, and what did you do to liberate yourself?
Tekquiree Spencer: Yes. There’s a couple of times. I mean, from certain jobs. what’s very interesting too. I know it seems like I just keep bringing it back to the cancer diagnosis. I had to figure out again who I was, I felt like I came to a point where I didn’t know who I was anymore. And, I didn’t want cancer to define me. You know, they say like you’re not your diagnosis and I had to figure I really did and I really started doing a work even honestly like as a wife to, I had to get clear. I had to clear all the labels, and really focus on me and who I am and who God says that I am. And once I started doing all of that inner work, everything started to get clear.
Toby Dorr: Oh, yes. Yes. That inner work is so important. We find our true selves in there, I think. I did, anyway. And out here in the world, unless you have something that shakes your world, like going to prison, or having a cancer diagnosis, or breaking your leg and being unable to go anywhere, unless you have something that stops you dead in your tracks, out here in the world, we are so busy with everything else that we don’t take the time to go inside and center ourselves and find ourselves and, and move forward. I look at my stay in prison as one of the biggest blessings in my life, because it forced me to stop and just be.
Tekquiree Spencer: And that is such a blessing. And until you can experience that, it’s like exactly what you said. The busyness just takes over, but that’s a whole nother level of being and living when you’re able to stop.
Toby Dorr: Yes. Yes. I so agree. I love that. I just love your story. You know, I met you, I think it was three years ago in October at a women’s starting movements conference in Chicago. And it was like, I just was like, immediately, I need to talk to her. I need to know her.
Tekquiree Spencer: Same as you. Me too.
Toby Dorr: So is there a question that you would wish that I’d asked you? Is there something else you’d like to share with us that we haven’t talked about?
Tekquiree Spencer: I think you’ve asked most of the questions. I’m like just thinking about my life. No, I think I touched on, I think the questions you’ve asked, I was able to touch on so many different things. Yeah, again, it’s really like the awareness of life and I’m always interested in how people come to be who they are. I think you’ve done an excellent job asking me all of the questions.
Toby Dorr: A lot of the things that you talk about, I think really come back to gratitude. And even on your worst day, when there’s nothing out there that seems to be good, you can find something to be grateful for and that just changes your whole perspective. And so that’s one of the reasons that I’m going to run this episode during Thanksgiving week this year – because I think that this is the best podcast to show that even in the midst of stage four cancer diagnosis, there’s something to be grateful for and that there’s something to thrive for. So I just love that! Tekquiree, is there a question that you’d like to ask me?
Tekquiree Spencer: Oh, you know, I was gonna ask you, but you answered it. Because when I was thinking about, I believe we had like a brief conversation some years ago. And you also shared with me, um, that you are also a cancer thriver. So I was gonna ask you about that. But you already talked about it.
Tekquiree Spencer: Oh, I do have one. So what would you say to your, I don’t know, 20, 25, 30 year old self?
Toby Dorr: I would say you are enough. You don’t have to go look for someone else to validate you. You don’t have to look for a job that will validate you and give your worth. You are enough just as you are, and you’re worth it.
Tekquiree Spencer: That’s so good. And it’s so true.
Toby Dorr: You know, actually my therapist asked me that question.
Toby Dorr: What would you tell your younger self? And it came immediately. You’re enough. Quit trying to please other people and find your value somewhere else because you have it in you already. You are enough.
Tekquiree Spencer: That’s definitely something that’s learned over time. I’m in like my early forties.
Toby Dorr: That moment when I was in prison and I was removed from the busyness of the world and just like you with your cancer you’re forced to sit with yourself and go inside and that’s really when the magic happens.
Tekquiree Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. And even now too, right? Like if I become busy. A little bit more busy than I want to be. And when I come back to that stillness, like it’s like the best. I wish that’s something we were taught to do. Yes. I’m trying to teach my son how to have, you know, to instill those types of being able to be still and, and honor his time with himself and all of that.
Toby Dorr: Oh, yes. I so agree I’ve started doing some artwork that is just kind of mindless, you know, but it’s that mindlessness that gives your mind the room to expand and grow. Cause it’s, you’re not bothered by things. And so I’ve just become almost addicted to this art because I can just go away, you know, and, and I just love it.
Toby Dorr: So, what’s one word that inspires you?
Tekquiree Spencer: I really like the word liberation.
Toby Dorr: Oh, that’s a great one.
Tekquiree Spencer: I love it. And I, before, like, I love freedom too.
Toby Dorr: Liberate is an action, and freedom is the result. But, you have to take an action for liberation. Yeah, I like that too. I like that too. Yeah.
Tekquiree Spencer: I can do anything. I’m moving from this to the next.
Toby Dorr: Yes. Yes. One of the taglines for my work is escape your prison. And we all have prisons. And we have to escape them to find our true self.
Tekquiree Spencer: I love that.
Toby Dorr: A great word. Escape your prison.
Tekquiree Spencer: That’s so good. I’m gonna start using that!
Toby Dorr: That’s good. Yeah. I love it too. Tekquiree, thank you so much for joining me. I just loved having you on this podcast and I can’t wait to share your story with the world.
Tekquiree Spencer: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me, Toby.
Toby Dorr: You’re so welcome. We’ll have to stay in touch a little bit better than we have the last few years.
Tekquiree Spencer: Yes, we do.
Toby Dorr: Thank you for listening to Fierce Conversations with Toby. We appreciate all the support you can give, and I’d like to share four ways that really help our show.
Toby Dorr: One, subscribe to our Patreon channel at patreon.com/ Fierce Conversations, where 10 percent of our proceeds are used to provide workbooks to women in prison. Two, like and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen, and watch by clicking the plus sign, the thumbs up, or the heart button. Pressing subscribe on YouTube as well helps even more.
Toby Dorr: Three, share this podcast episode with your friends and family by telling them about it and posting it on your social media accounts. Four, write a review on whatever platform you’re using to listen to this episode. Your support is truly what keeps this show going. The show notes contain links to all the ways you can support us, as well as links to information for Tekquiree’s website and links to purchase my books.
Toby Dorr: Fierce Conversations with Toby is created and hosted by Toby Dorr and produced by Number 3 Productions, a division of Grace Point Publishing. Music created and arranged by Lisa Plasse, owner of From the Top Music Studio. This is Fierce Conversations with Toby. Escape your prison.
